Question:
Kathryn, I tried to move the statements from the personal to the political. Please do not take it as a personal comment on your situation. Ah, now I understand why you’ve been so bitchy the last couple of days!
A familiar phrase. If I recall, in 1970, guys tended to say that about women who has strong political views. I do see a great many parallels between those times and contemporary times. We are talking about equal protection under the law. We are facing a set of societal attitudes whereby few people can imagine an alternative way of doing things. In any case, the political structure and how society views children and CS is such that my advice to any young man is "Do not reproduce." I would almost say the same about marriage – except that the relationship between marriage and reproduction is tenuous. Perhaps my objection to marriage has more to do with the fact the people change when they have power. rayo
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Kathryn, I tried to move the statements from the personal to the political. Please do not take it as a personal comment on your situation. Ah, now I understand why you’ve been so bitchy the last couple of days! A familiar phrase. If I recall, in 1970, guys tended to say that about women who has strong political views. I do see a great many parallels between those times and contemporary times. We are talking about equal protection under the law. We are facing a set of societal attitudes whereby few people can imagine an alternative way of doing things. In any case, the political structure and how society views children and CS is such that my advice to any young man is "Do not reproduce." I would almost say the same about marriage – except that the relationship between marriage and reproduction is tenuous. Perhaps my objection to marriage has more to do with the fact the people change when they have power.
I think guys and gals, even when very young, know the score, if not at a conscious level then certainly at the intuitive. The current legal-social-political structure views children as fundamentally the property of women and, along with that, the purpose of men is $. The ramifications of that are many: Men are more reluctant to marry. Men are more reluctant to have children. Men are more reluctant to care for children. At time of separation, children are hugely damaged by this. Men, facing huge hurdles, are more willing to walk away from it all (I, for one, do not blame them). And, if my thesis is correct, the CS system is devastating men, particularly those in the lowest SES where it is devastating entire neighborhoods. The women’s movement has, for 30 years, talked about equality. Basically, in developed countries, that has been achieved with two glaring omissions. First is obviously the presidency. I was sort of hoping that Libby Dole would fix that, but Bob found Viagra and Libby decided she had better things to do ;] The other is children. And this issue exposes a fundamental flaw in feminism. Those gals imagined that redistribution of power was a one way process, and now they are fighting tooth and nail *against* social equality. Small wonder that most women and almost all men have rejected the NOW. They have become power elitists. Getting back to the personal … Just for discussion’s sake, what do you suppose would happen if you contacted the ex and said "Gee, guy. This system stinks. I think we should revise the custody papers so we can truly share the children." I don’t mean simply trying to get him to spend more time with the kids. I mean giving him back power over his life – you gals call it empowerment. There is a difference, you know. If I said to my gf that I am willing to "let" her work, she would find a new use for the frying pan. Fact is, her career is her sphere, her set of choices. Once he gets past the initial suspicion and shock, what do you think might happen? [and do you actually lose anything?] I would think one issue would be what you women have called role models – he doesn’t have any, except for Fred McMurray (My Three Sons). So, he might have to re-invent his own personal wheel – or, maybe, it is something he can not even imagine. It’s just never been on the table as one of his life options, has it? Don’t you suppose your great-grandmother would have taken more interest in education, if career had been a real world option. Hey, I’ve taken my kids down to the playground. I sat alone while the mommies talked about *their* mommy problems, including breast-feeding. So, of course, I sat somewhere else (although, as fate would have it, I happen to have a great deal of expertise in that last area). But I was keenly aware that I was a freak – just as women who sought out careers in 1950 were freaks. Incidentally, my mom was one of them. so, when women in 1970 said they wanted careers, my reaction was "So what’s all the excitement about?" rayo
Response:
I do think that there will come a time when a man who wants his children is not subjected to (words of Dr. Fink): "interviews by a psychologist, psychological testing, interviews and testing of your STBX and children, and home visits by the evaluator." It will take longer than the success of women in the workplace, because I don’t recall women who chose a career ever being harrassed to that degree. rayo
Response:
Kathryn, I tried to move the statements from the personal to the political. Please do not take it as a personal comment on your situation.
Ah, but you can never separate the political from the personal, grasshoppa–were you absent from class the day they taught that in "Feminism 101"? Sorry for ranting on you, cumpa. But that’s twice in one week when your good buddies and erstwhile allies have gone off on you. Something to think about. BTW, whatcha doing the weekend of Nov. 18/19? I’ll be in SF to give a paper Saturday afternoon, and my flight out isn’t until Sunday night. I don’t think it’s fair of you to go on and on about your wonderful international culinary skills and then not even invite me over for dinner 
—– Kathryn Litherland | People make their own history Latin American Studies Program | but they do not make it under University of Illinois, Chicago | circumstances of their own choosing | –Karl Marx, _The 18th Brumaire_
Response:
I do think that there will come a time when a man who wants his children is not subjected to (words of Dr. Fink): "interviews by a psychologist, psychological testing, interviews and testing of your STBX and children, and home visits by the evaluator." It will take longer than the success of women in the workplace, because I don’t recall women who chose a career ever being harrassed to that degree.
It only took a few millenia for women to achieve that. I’d better that equal rights in parenting will come about much, much sooner. Maybe only a few centuries! —– Kathryn Litherland | People make their own history Latin American Studies Program | but they do not make it under University of Illinois, Chicago | circumstances of their own choosing | –Karl Marx, _The 18th Brumaire_
Response:
Kathryn, I tried to move the statements from the personal to the political. Please do not take it as a personal comment on your situation. Ah, but you can never separate the political from the personal, grasshoppa–were you absent from class the day they taught that in "Feminism 101"?
As my gf keeps reminding me "but sex *is* politics." Sorry for ranting on you, cumpa. But that’s twice in one week when your good buddies and erstwhile allies have gone off on you. Something to think about.
I think what I’m trying to say is that women, with rare exception, can not understand. They can not have the experience of entering a union knowing that failure of the union means loss of children. Or deciding to have children with that knowledge. Or living with a marriage under those terms. Etc. Etc. From where I sit, this is a nationalized system of gender based kidnapping and extortion. The alternative explanation is I am male and therefore violent. Hey! Bring onm the SOMA. BTW, whatcha doing the weekend of Nov. 18/19? I’ll be in SF to give a paper Saturday afternoon, and my flight out isn’t until Sunday night.
You certainly don’t want me at the conference, cause I’d start ranting at all the FCPs. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I don’t think it’s fair of you to go on and on about your wonderful international culinary skills and then not even invite me over for dinner —– Kathryn Litherland | People make their own history Latin American Studies Program | but they do not make it under University of Illinois, Chicago | circumstances of their own choosing | –Karl Marx, _The 18th Brumaire_
Response:
It will take longer than the success of women in the workplace, because I don’t recall women who chose a career ever being harrassed to that degree. It only took a few millenia for women to achieve that. I’d better that equal rights in parenting will come about much, much sooner.
Is that true? Millenia for woman to acheive that? And have they acheived it? Maybe only a few centuries!
Well, if it is only a few decades, which I think is reasonable, then that would be one-one-hundredth of the time it took women to acheive their only partially successful goals. Which seems to indicate if you want something done quickly, right and completely, leave it to the *men*. Best -Fido —– Kathryn Litherland | People make their own history
Before you buy.
Response:
In article <Pine.GSO.4.10.10010210743070.12938- So I’ve given up on that, and retreated to my other mode of interaction, which is stupid one- (or two- or three-) liners.
What is wrong with that? Best – Fido Before you buy.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I do think that there will come a time when a man who wants his children is not subjected to (words of Dr. Fink): "interviews by a psychologist, psychological testing, interviews and testing of your STBX and children, and home visits by the evaluator." It will take longer than the success of women in the workplace, because I don’t recall women who chose a career ever being harrassed to that degree. It only took a few millenia for women to achieve that. I’d better that equal rights in parenting will come about much, much sooner. Maybe only a few centuries! Um… in real terms, it took far less then that. Societies don’t tend to change in any way, when the main task is to stay alive, either in dealing with subsistance farming, or food gathering, and in being crunched under the local lords’ wars. The nation state is only a few hundred years in age. The Industrial Revolution is even younger. The period that covers mass movements in human rights could be said to be scarcely a century old. Yet, in that century, we’ve swiftly moved from almost no rights of women to *more* rights for women. It’s hardly a stretch to ask that we return the pendulum to mid point in less time then it took for it to swing 180 degrees. And, as someone who’s studied history, you surely know that, for most of the history of the species, almost NO one had what we would call human rights. Aside from the very few men who ruled ( and, when overthrown, died ), no other men, either. That’s one reason we call the gaining of said right *human* rights. They’re for everyone. While I understand that sometimes remarks said in jest can be grist for the thought-mill, I want to make it clear that I was, in fact, only joking.
Yes, I caught that. But, as someone once said, homour is an interrupted defense mechanism, and there was a thought inside of it that I believed could be properly addressed. I guess I feel like, for the moment, Roy’s stance that I, as a woman, cannot fully understand the position that guys are in, and therefore, my serious social commentary is–hmmm, how to say it…."misplaced" perhaps. So I’ve given up on that, and retreated to my other mode of interaction, which is stupid one- (or two- or three-) liners.
An interesting area, as I have seen a lot of mainstream so called " jokes " that, if you reverse the sex, would become unacceptable as an " attack " on women. It’s too bloddy common. Now, I’d take issue with the argument that, not being a guy myself and not being able to experience what guys experience, I cannot engage in fruitful analysis/conversation on the topic.
That wasn’t quite what was being said. Anyone who wants to come to the debate, in an *informed* position, and who is willing to fully empathise and show compassion to what we guys are being hit, unjustly, with, can share of themselves, too. But, telling Roy that his pain, and the way that he’s being f***ed over, is some form of " payback ", or rebalancing of the old ways of thousands of years of *all* men having it so over *all* women was surely not that. Beyond that, I am opposed to the " pendulum " approach of these things. Why is it acceptable for it to over swing ? Why don’t we all demand that it be fixed, and be put in the proper centre ? I wrote what I wrote, as I believe that you were incorrect on the history, and the present day reality. As he pointed out to you, that you’re stuck with all the work of raising your kids is not comparable to the way that he is stuck *not* raising his. He wants to, and your ex *doesn’t*. That your ex is not in legal trouble for his choice is because you have chosen not to use your available powers in the legal system. Roy *has* no such equivalent powers, and *that* is the issue. If that were so, the whole ethnographic endeavor which is the cornerstone of my professional life would be useless…
Ah, but would you tell another person, who is a member of a legally discriminated group, that their losses were " historically justified " ? I don’t believe that you would. You’re far too smart for that. You’re not a guy. You can bring empathy to bear, to " compensate " for that being the case, but there is no guarantee that anyone, including you, including me, will do that, each time that it’s called for. When someone doesn’t, it’s worth pointing out to them, so that they learn. —– Kathryn Litherland | People make their own history Latin American Studies Program | but they do not make it under University of Illinois, Chicago | circumstances of their own choosing
| –Karl Marx, _The 18th Brumaire_ Andre — " The noblest achievement of the imagination is to make time run some other way, and terminate in beauty and forgivness " David Gelernter, " 1939 "
Response:
Writing this must have made you feel a whole lot better, or at least I hope so. I find your postings to be rather good. I do sympathize with anyone, man or woman, that has sole responsiblity for the kids. I shoulder my half and derive a great joy from it, but don’t envy the work it takes.
Yeah, sometimes we all need a little rant…my whole week crescendos to hectic insanity on Thursday, and this week I stayed up Wednesday until 3 am preparing for my 3-hour afternoon seminar, my childcare arrangements fell through and I had to make emergency backup plans, and when I set down in front of my seminar students and saw that they all had a different book in front of them I realized that I had prepared for the wrong week on the syllabus…gah. Not a good day. —– Kathryn Litherland | People make their own history Latin American Studies Program | but they do not make it under University of Illinois, Chicago | circumstances of their own choosing | –Karl Marx, _The 18th Brumaire_
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I do think that there will come a time when a man who wants his children is not subjected to (words of Dr. Fink): "interviews by a psychologist, psychological testing, interviews and testing of your STBX and children, and home visits by the evaluator." It will take longer than the success of women in the workplace, because I don’t recall women who chose a career ever being harrassed to that degree. It only took a few millenia for women to achieve that. I’d better that equal rights in parenting will come about much, much sooner. Maybe only a few centuries! Um… in real terms, it took far less then that. Societies don’t tend to change in any way, when the main task is to stay alive, either in dealing with subsistance farming, or food gathering, and in being crunched under the local lords’ wars. The nation state is only a few hundred years in age. The Industrial Revolution is even younger. The period that covers mass movements in human rights could be said to be scarcely a century old. Yet, in that century, we’ve swiftly moved from almost no rights of women to *more* rights for women. It’s hardly a stretch to ask that we return the pendulum to mid point in less time then it took for it to swing 180 degrees. And, as someone who’s studied history, you surely know that, for most of the history of the species, almost NO one had what we would call human rights. Aside from the very few men who ruled ( and, when overthrown, died ), no other men, either. That’s one reason we call the gaining of said right *human* rights. They’re for everyone.
While I understand that sometimes remarks said in jest can be grist for the thought-mill, I want to make it clear that I was, in fact, ony joking. I guess I feel like, for the moment, Roy’s stance that I, as a woman, cannot fully understand the position that guys are in, and therefore, my serious social commentary is–hmmm, how to say it…."misplaced" perhaps. So I’ve given up on that, and retreated to my other mode of interaction, which is stupid one- (or two- or three-) liners. Now, I’d take issue with the argument that, not being a guy myself and not being able to experience what guys experience, I cannot engage in fruitful analysis/conversation on the topic. If that were so, the whole ethnographic endeavor which is the cornerstone of my professional life would be useless… —– Kathryn Litherland | People make their own history Latin American Studies Program | but they do not make it under University of Illinois, Chicago | circumstances of their own choosing | –Karl Marx, _The 18th Brumaire_
Response:
Writing this must have made you feel a whole lot better, or at least I hope so. I find your postings to be rather good. I do sympathize with anyone, man or woman, that has sole responsiblity for the kids. I shoulder my half and derive a great joy from it, but don’t envy the work it takes. Steve – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snip large pieces. I think I’ll go to the courthouse today and declare I only want 50% custody–not a minute less, not a minute more. Not a dollar less, not a dollar more. And if daddy doesn’t want them 50% of the time, and can’t afford 50% of their expenses–well, tough shit for the kiddies. Let them be raised by wolves every other week, if need be. —– Kathryn Litherland | People make their own history Latin American Studies Program | but they do not make it under University of Illinois, Chicago | circumstances of their own choosing | –Karl Marx, _The 18th Brumaire_
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I do think that there will come a time when a man who wants his children is not subjected to (words of Dr. Fink): "interviews by a psychologist, psychological testing, interviews and testing of your STBX and children, and home visits by the evaluator." It will take longer than the success of women in the workplace, because I don’t recall women who chose a career ever being harrassed to that degree. It only took a few millenia for women to achieve that. I’d better that equal rights in parenting will come about much, much sooner. Maybe only a few centuries!
Um… in real terms, it took far less then that. Societies don’t tend to change in any way, when the main task is to stay alive, either in dealing with subsistance farming, or food gathering, and in being crunched under the local lords’ wars. The nation state is only a few hundred years in age. The Industrial Revolution is even younger. The period that covers mass movements in human rights could be said to be scarcely a century old. Yet, in that century, we’ve swiftly moved from almost no rights of women to *more* rights for women. It’s hardly a stretch to ask that we return the pendulum to mid point in less time then it took for it to swing 180 degrees. And, as someone who’s studied history, you surely know that, for most of the history of the species, almost NO one had what we would call human rights. Aside from the very few men who ruled ( and, when overthrown, died ), no other men, either. That’s one reason we call the gaining of said right *human* rights. They’re for everyone. —– Kathryn Litherland | People make their own history Latin American Studies Program | but they do not make it under University of Illinois, Chicago | circumstances of their own choosing | –Karl Marx, _The 18th Brumaire_
Andre — " The noblest achievement of the imagination is to make time run some other way, and terminate in beauty and forgivness " David Gelernter, " 1939 "
Response:
Kathryn, I tried to move the statements from the personal to the political. Please do not take it as a personal comment on your situation. Ah, but you can never separate the political from the personal, grasshoppa–were you absent from class the day they taught that in "Feminism 101"?
Yes, as they didn’t allow men in. For more about that, and why the delusion of " the personal is the political " is one of the main reasons why modern feminism has failed, read Daphne Patai and Noretta Koertge’s book " Professing Feminism ". They detail the failures and problems of the area of Women’s Studies. Ms. Patai’s " Heterophobia " continues in that search. I highly recommend both, among a modern reading list of what’s going on in this area. The notion that there is no boundary between personal and societal matters is just silly, when you examine it. Does it mean that my choice of dinner tonight impacts the whole society ? If I wanna watch a tittie movie, am I causing rapes ? And, so on. So, Ray is quite justified in discussing his views of where feminism has gone and *failed* in it’s prime claim of seeking equality. And, that such a comment is in no way an " attack " on any particular or all women. Sorry for ranting on you, cumpa. But that’s twice in one week when your good buddies and erstwhile allies have gone off on you. Something to think about.
And, twice that I can see his point of view. It may be that being a guy, I can see where he’s coming from a bit better. Just as my black friends have aspects to their experiences that I can try to view, but I cannot really live them. BTW, whatcha doing the weekend of Nov. 18/19? I’ll be in SF to give a paper Saturday afternoon, and my flight out isn’t until Sunday night. I don’t think it’s fair of you to go on and on about your wonderful international culinary skills and then not even invite me over for dinner
Go to it, Roy. It sounds as it’d be a wonderful time of conversation, in the best sense of that word. —– Kathryn Litherland | People make their own history Latin American Studies Program | but they do not make it under University of Illinois, Chicago | circumstances of their own choosing | –Karl Marx, _The 18th Brumaire_
Andre — " The noblest achievement of the imagination is to make time run some other way, and terminate in beauty and forgivness " David Gelernter, " 1939 "
Response:
I don’t know where you are located but here in Nebraska if your child gives birth to a child before they are the age of 19 you are no longer obligated to pay child support. If I were your husband I would do some serious checking. As for the house, why is he still paying the mortgage? She should be paying at least half if not all since she is the one still living in it. Sound like your husband got the royal screw. I wish you the best of luck Beth
Response:
…. I know, I know – I am ranting…I’ve got no choice but to grin and bear it, because that’s all my husband can think of to do. Ideas? Opinions? Thoughts? All I need is perspective, I guess.
I know, I know. My gf puts up with lots of stuff. She has been accused of molesting the daughter. She feels like she is always second to the ex who uses the children to keep her claws in me. I don’t know the legal stuff. Just my advice that you two love each other lots and make love often. Hmmm. the little gal comes in from an out of town trip tonight. Gotta go .. fix dinner, clean kitchen, check my make-up. rayo
Response:
I don’t know where you are located but here in Nebraska if your child
gives birth to a child before they are the age of 19 you are no longer obligated to pay child support. We have already looked into this. Unfortunately his child support obligation is unchanged. It’s California – and it’s complicated even more by the fact that we live in Texas. At the moment I am considering separating our finances until after this mess is sorted out, just to protect myself and my kids. However, I honestly doubt that he will *ever* get on top of it. It feels so unjust, and I just don’t know what to do anymore. It’s not as if I didn’t know about it when we married. I guess I just thought everything would be ok in the end. Somehow. Before you buy.
Response:
Hmmm. the little gal comes in from an out of town trip tonight. Gotta go .. fix dinner, clean kitchen, check my make-up.
Ah, now I understand why you’ve been so bitchy the last couple of days! (Make sure you make the bed just the way she likes it ) —– Kathryn Litherland | People make their own history Latin American Studies Program | but they do not make it under University of Illinois, Chicago | circumstances of their own choosing | –Karl Marx, _The 18th Brumaire_
Response:
Hmmm. the little gal comes in from an out of town trip tonight. Gotta go .. fix dinner, clean kitchen, check my make-up. Ah, now I understand why you’ve been so bitchy the last couple of days!
Hmmm… could be. There is something a bit broader in my thinking. Hard to express without making some black-white analogies (something I had resolved not to do). I would not presume to go stand on the street corner in the ‘hood and preach "you can do it" without expecting a bit of hostility. Because I live in my world and I am simply unable to fully appreciate some of the insitutional barriers. So … enough with that analogy … on to the insitutional issues for fathers. For 25 years, we have been demonized by feminism. Even in our use of the language, "paternal" is used to slander us and "maternal" is used to beatify women. We have in place a set of "Standard Visitation Orders" and, for the most part, "Standard" means "Mommyville". After the production of a slew of fraudulent stats on "deadbeat" dads, we are now building a national police state predicated on the assumption that all Dads Separated from Children (DSCs) have abandoned their children. And that all DSCs need to me computerized, monitored, and checked monthly. We are, after all, men. We are disposeable to families – with the sole exception of the bucks we have to offer. We have, over the past couple of generations built up public health and welfare systems for the purposes of helping women and children, and basically ignoring men. So, now, the welfare part is looking too expensive and we have decided to dismantle as much as possible. So now society needs a "fall guy". We have collectively decided to pretend that the reason welfare was needed is because of "deadbeat" dads – who, in reality, come from the same socio-economic and educational background as the women who were on welfare. Guys who were at least ignored by the welfare state are now being hunted by the police state. They are hunting down the dead, the mentally ill, the impoverished, those in prisons, those in hospitals. Guys are being charged CS according to the guidelines when they are employed full time. They continue to be charge when they are unemployed. They are charged when they are in jail. They are charged when they are in a coma. They are charged when they are dead. The are charged and jailed by administrative procedures with or without legal representation. With or without constitutional authority. The "real world" ramifications of the child support guidelines is that they only apply to those who are full-time employed, never disabled, never hospitalized, never between jobs. In all other situations, they are over-applied. I grant that many men don’t care to have a lot of contact with their children. I also recognize that the insitutional and maternal barriers laid down are such that many men just plain give up. Now, it’s all fine for a woman to say "You can do it! See how easy it was for me!" Female liberalism! It’s easy to bring in the cotton, when it’s your plantation. It’s also very easy for a women to say "Hey! I do everything I can to accomodate the father and the children." But, after all, it is just that … accomodation, while retaining control. And, you can bet your fanny that he knows very well that such accomodation ends when the one who owns the children becomes displeased. That is not equality. Thatis Noblesse Oblige (sp?). Now let’s face a couple of facts. I have been cast as a spouse abuser and a junkie in the eyes of the court. So … unless she abandons the kids, takes up smack, or becomes a hooker, the chances of my overcoming that are between slim to none. I won’t say impossible – Hell, lightning could strike on a clear summer day in San Francisco! So, a bit of a pep talk from someone who is, by definition, not able to appreciate the institutional situation – and that means someone who occupies a place of privilege with respect to custody and children – doesn’t sit all too well. Frankly, my issues are not about "how to win custody". I’m, a bit more realistic than that. My issues have to do with "What do I say to the kid?" And you can bet, at some point in his adolescence, barring radical civil rights developments for father, I will have to tell him "Don’t Reproduce". Because that makes you a slave to the mother and an enemy of the state. Today, I noticed in the paper an article about how suicides among young black men have been incresing. "Gee", says I, "What could be the cause of that?" Well, its right there in the article where it says "Men are more violent, and suicide is a violent act." "Aw, geez!" say I. rayo
Response:
My husband and I have been married for 18 months. I love him very much, and don’t want our marriage to fail, but I am just going nuts over the situation with his former wife. Is there anyone else out there whose situation is like the one I describe below, in all or in part? I just want to hear the perspective of other people, because I feel as if I am the only second wife whose husband is in such a mess. The ex has sole custody of the 17-year-old daughter, and lives in the family home. My hubby pays BOTH mortgages AND child support. He will probably have to do this for another 18 months (until she is 19, since she is not at school full time). Then, when she is 19, the ex wife is supposed to "put the house on the market" within six months of the daughter’s birthday. Meanwhile, my DH STILL pays the mortgage – and if the house doesn’t sell, there’s no provision for him being released from any of the financial responsibility. The mother works, by the way. She has always worked. She just refused to sign any divorce papers until my husband gave her everything she wanted (and that, BTW, is how she managed to hang on to him for 14 years). We are very lucky that I have enough independent assets, and a high enough earning capacity (I am a senior technical professional in my own right) to be able to afford a fqamily home for the two of us and my three kids, therefore this is an emotional issue, mostly, for me. But I have this awful feeling that the whole mess is going to drag on and on and on, and meanwhile my DH and I aren’t really married – because he is someone else’s wallet. To cap it all, the daughter has produced a baby. She also has not got enough high school credits to be called a freshman, since she is on "home study." The reason for this is that she was/is "too sick to attend school," and so was placed on home study. This kid has been in and out of emergency rooms at least every other month since I have known her father. She has had tens of different doctors all prescribing like mad (and not talking to each other). She got hooked on painkillers. She goes apes**t at the very mention of psychological help. We have a stack of medical claim information at least three inches thick – and that doesn’t include the times that the mother actually used the network insurance properly. And this "very sick" child who experiences "constant abdominal pain" managed to get pregnant (and managed to teach me how to ride a dirt bike, incidentally…)? Sometimes when I feel really really bad, I think "Munchausen syndrome," but I would hate to leap onto that bandwagon. I know there has been something really wrong with the kid (a pancreatic disorder, apparently), but she has been treated for that both medically and surgically, with no apparent success. I KNOW there’s something wrong here. Talk to me, folks out there. I want to punch someone. I’m fine with child support, but why on earth does he have to keep the house like that? It’s a four bedroom family home, and there are two people living in it. I know, I know – I am ranting…I’ve got no choice but to grin and bear it, because that’s all my husband can think of to do. Ideas? Opinions? Thoughts? All I need is perspective, I guess. Before you buy.
Response:
I would not presume to go stand on the street corner in the ‘hood and preach "you can do it" without expecting a bit of hostility. Because I live in my world and I am simply unable to fully appreciate some of the insitutional barriers.
Ok, so if you don’t want support from women who are not in your situation, but are attempting to appreciate it to the extent possible, why are you posting here, and not in alt.support.angry-old-farts.without.custody? It’s also very easy for a women to say "Hey! I do everything I can to accomodate the father and the children." But, after all, it is just that … accomodation, while retaining control. And, you can bet your fanny that he knows very well that such accomodation ends when the one who owns the children becomes displeased. That is not equality. Thatis Noblesse Oblige (sp?).
You know I like you as an individual and admire you as a father, Roy–I’d like to think of you as a friend. But you can just fuck off about this "owning the children" crap, if it is at all directed toward me. I don’t give a rat’s ass what some stranger or known half-wit or kook opines about me, but when someone I respect starts with these sorts of subtle an undeserved digs, it makes me start to lose respect for them. I’ll state it once more for the record, and then shut up about it. I am not "retaining control." Someone had to take responsibility, both financial, and time-wise, for our kids, and dad was not willing or interested in doing it. Not 50%, not 25%, not 10%. I shouldered as much of that–financial and time-wise, as I humanly could, and my parents and the state stepped in where that fell short of the 100% needed. I suppose I should have just set my "responsibility" timer for 50%, and when my 50% was up, shoved the kids out the door for daddy to take care of. So what if he’s flown 4,000 miles away to Germany (on *my* money) and can’t and won’t take them in? To go beyond 50% would be controlling, right? All mothers with sole custody have it because they’ve played some manipulative little power game, right? So hell. Leave them out on the doorstep bawling and waiting for daddy while he’s 4,000 miles away doing some "balling" of a different sort. God forbid I appear like I am "controlling" them and him. I think I’ll go to the courthouse today and declare I only want 50% custody–not a minute less, not a minute more. Not a dollar less, not a dollar more. And if daddy doesn’t want them 50% of the time, and can’t afford 50% of their expenses–well, tough shit for the kiddies. Let them be raised by wolves every other week, if need be. —– Kathryn Litherland | People make their own history Latin American Studies Program | but they do not make it under University of Illinois, Chicago | circumstances of their own choosing | –Karl Marx, _The 18th Brumaire_
Response:
) Tee "Margaret McDonald" <aberma…@btconnect.com> wrote in message news:SO3S6.1713$TP2.29129@NewsReader… Oh, And Jils? Ye’re havering, yon accent wis awfy, Ye’d be better to save yer breath to cool ye’r purritch, an’ leave yon spirtle ben the lobby, jings -crivvens, help ma boab!!! Margaret, in Glasgow, Ruby’s lassie, the wan that went tae be a nurse 
Like the book says I am sick and tired of feeling sick and tired! This has been going on for over 10yrs on and off now, I have had a stream of ignorant wee men, all gynaes, telling me *You can’t be losing that much blood!* *You will have to lose more weight! * *Menstruation is a perfectly normal female function, most other women just accept it* and one……………….thought I complained so much because I was lesbian ?!?!?!!!!! I swear, the next one who makes a stoopid comment I may just rip my own bluddy uterus out and hurl it at them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hmmm, that might be painful tho’ 