Klonopin

Question:

"b…@nospam.net" wrote:

<snip irrelevant rant about Doug Ruth> >  It is always the ones that contribute the least to helping anyone on > this news group that criticize the ones that do the most to actual help > people and share their experiences. This is the reason that MOST of the > people that were here a couple of years ago are no longer here.

This is utter bullshit.  I’ve been around usenet and email support groups since 1990, and virtually NO-ONE stays with a group for more than a couple of years at a stretch.  (Steve Harris on sci.med is a notable exception)  Life is a dynamic process.  People get busy with other things.  People find _new_ groups to visit.  People realize that the group can get along without them, and decide that they are spending too much time on the newsgroups.  There are an enormous number of things which can cause people to leave a group.  When they just get pissed, and leave purely because of anger, they usually end up seething and stewing for a while, then come back to see what’s happening.  (Just like YOU did when you "left forever.") Most people tend to just fade away, due to apathy, or fascination with new things. I also think that your attempt to link people’s treatment of Doug Ruth on this group to his suicide are inappropriate as well.  People don’t commit suicide because someone was insulting to them online.  People commit suicide because they are mentally ill.  Perhaps online insults and flame wars can exacerbate an already poor situation, but trying to lay the blame for Mr. Ruth’s death on a specific usenet poster is rather weak.  Trying to make an analogy between that claim, and your argument with Charles suggests that perhaps you should seek counseling for depression.  If you feel that Charles is driving you to the point where you need to make analogies between your interactions, and the online interactions of Mr. Ruth just before his suicide, then you may be experiencing a serious inability to appropriately respond to the social environment you are in.  (And I am NOT saying this as an insult. I have experience with the issue, and it really does completely destroy your ability to get the proper perspective on things.) >  I know that you hate my guts, and I really couldn’t care less. I > strongly suggest that you put me into your kill file immediately. If you > insist on playing your little games with me……It WILL get nasty. > Promise, not threat!

I really don’t understand what the problem is here.  Maybe it’s because I ignore all the threads about CPAP and apnea, so I don’t get to see most of you guys’ posts.  But restricting my opinions to just what was said in this thread, Charles made a perfectly polite and acceptable response to one of your posts.  Yet later, you decided to mention him specifically in a post which wasn’t even a response to him.  And what you said was really obnoxious. Now, expanding my opinions to what I have seen of your behavior with regards to John Fisher (one of the nicest people I’ve ever met on usenet), and your incredibly obnoxious and rude behavior towards him merely because he was nice to a spammer, I personally think that you are being unreasonable. >  Better run along now Charles and check the posting with the girls on > alt. fashion. Perhaps you can attend another "scavenger cunt" like the > one you posted about on July 11 at 8:59:42. I think that comment is > quite indicative of the your attitude toward women.

People who take small snippets of postings out of context are among the lowest of the low.  Especially when you quote posts from a completely unrelated group.  Different groups have different styles. I doubt you’d like it if someone quoted something you said in a locker room when you were in high school, next time you are applying for a job.  Context, and the social environment are critical for determining if something is appropriate.  By taking a quote out of context, and posting it in a different environment, you are being truly repulsive. If you have something against Charles, then say it, don’t go trying to smear him with out of context quotations from unrelated newsgroups. And by the way, I’m calling you on the fact that you completely backtracked on your opinion of Klonopin, rather than admit that you were wrong.  Read about it in another post on this thread.  (Or don’t, I don’t really care.) -Bret Wood -bretw…@cs.uoregon.edu

Response:

>Klonopin is not a sedative drug. >Klonopin IS a sedative drug.  It is commonly used as a sedative drug.

I’m usually pretty quiet around here, just lurking in the wings, but I feel I must give my 2 cents worth… My daughters (age 4 and almost years old…) both have RLS/PLMD, and both are on Klonapin. When they first began taking it (like the first week…) it made them groggy-but then-WHOA! Bouncing off the walls! They now take Clonidine (Generic Catapress, usually used  to treat high blood pressure) along with the Klonapin. The Clonidine helps them FALL asleep, and the Klonapin helps them STAY asleep. Amazing, Huh? So, we all have our "opinions", but let’s not bash each other for it. And Bret, didn’t your parents ever tell you that 2 wrongs don’t make a right? It’s not nice to insult someone for insulting someone ELSE-if it were you who were insulted, fine- otherwise,MYOB, and let them work it out amongst themselves-there’s always a resolution in the end as you have seen in the past-they participants in the feuds know when to say when, and call a truce. Everyone else sticking their noses in it just fans the flames, setting the scenerio for a long, nasty battle that might otherwise be overwith in just a few messages. (And, BTW, I’m NOT insulting you-just stating a few things I’ve observed.) PS…After this, I could use a few Oreos-anyone got a couple laying around? Happy Dreaming… Trish

Response:

ZAPYA69 wrote: > So, we all have our "opinions", but let’s not bash each other for it. And Bret, > didn’t your parents ever tell you that 2 wrongs don’t make a right? It’s not > nice to insult someone for insulting someone ELSE-if it were you who were > insulted, fine- otherwise,MYOB, and let them work it out amongst > themselves-there’s always a resolution in the end as you have seen in the > past-they participants in the feuds know when to say when, and call a truce.

Bear started using a "dirty trick" when he took an out of context quote from another newsgroup and posted it here.  I had someone do something similar to me several years ago, and it is _not nice_. Even though the post wasn’t directed at me, it was the same underhanded attack I had to put up with several years ago, and I felt that it was necessary for me to come to Charles’ aid so that he wouldn’t be "hung out to dry" the way I was when it happened to me.  People who commit such egregious violations of netiquitte deserve to get flamed to a crisp IMNSHO. If one guy is going to start beating on someone else, should the rest of the world just stand back and watch?  There comes a point where someone should step in and help. But, I do appreciate your opinion.  And if I had any Oreos, I’d share them with you.  :) -Bret

Response:

"b…@nospam.net" wrote: > IMHO, treating insomnia with Klonopin is a poor "off chart > utilization of Klonopin. It has the longest serum half life of all the > benzo drugs, and leave the patient groggy an "hung over" in the morning > for a considerable time.

But originally, you said this: > Klonopin is not a sedative drug. I honestly don’t know where this > fallacy originated…… perhaps in the prescription pad of a > physician that didn’t read his P.D.R.

Klonopin IS a sedative drug.  It is commonly used as a sedative drug. Even if it is an "off label" use, it is still one of the most common uses.  When I was having a borderline manic episode, and took myself to the emergency room, they gave me a large dose of Klonopin, and sent me home to sleep it off.  I was prescribed Klonopin as a sleeping pill for several weeks to help me force myself onto a nighttime sleep schedule.  In most older psychiatric texts, Klonopin is listed as a "minor tranqualizer."  More up to date texts use the term antianxiety agent instead.  In psychiatry, the primary uses of Klonopin is to treat acute anxiety, and to induce drowsiness. Also, the only difference between a "side effect" and a "therapeutic effect" depends on _why_ you are taking the medication, not WHAT the medication is.  In my case, I am taking Verapamil as a mood stabilizer.  It is also lowering my blood pressure.  If it stopped affecting my blood pressure, I really wouldn’t care, because that is a _side effect_ in my case, since I am taking the med to treat a mood disorder.  On the other hand, if someone with angina started taking Verapamil, and they noticed that their cyclothymia (a very mild sub-clinical form of manic depression) had diminished, then the mood stabilization property would be the side effect. -Bret Wood -bretw…@cs.uoregon.edu

Response:

On Sun, 11 Jul 1999 16:41:49 GMT, jeba…@xxmicrodsi.net (Tom Miller) wrote: >On Sun, 11 Jul 1999 03:41:42 GMT, clper…@swbell.net (Charles L. >Perrin) wrote: >> |  On Sat, 10 Jul 1999 16:23:57 -0700, "b…@nospam.net" >> |  <b…@nospam.net> wrote: >> |  > Klonopin is not a sedative drug. I honestly don’t know where this >> |  >fallacy originated…… perhaps in the prescription pad of a physician >> |  >that didn’t read his P.D.R. >> |  PDR covers the FDA-labeled uses of a drug. If Abbott didn’t put down >> |  "it’s a sedative" in their FDA application, it’s not in the PDR. >Just a point of information, the drug descriptions in PDR (Physicians’ >Desk Reference) are written (and paid for) by the drug manufacturers. >PDR only collects the descriptions (called "package inserts") and >prints them in one place. Although this is a valuable service, it >doesn’t necessarily list all the ways a particular drug may  be used, >as Charles correctly states.

Tom, It’s dangerous to agree with me. A certain b…@nospam.net has this pusillanimous habit of hiding behind his pseudonym and then trolling other newsgroups in which you have participated. Consider yourself warned. <grin/duck> –C.

Response:

On Sun, 11 Jul 1999 13:30:14 -0700, "b…@nospam.net" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<b…@nospam.net> wrote: > |  x-no-archive: yes > |   > |  Tom Miller wrote: > |  > > |   > |  > Just a point of information, the drug descriptions in PDR (Physicians’ > |  > Desk Reference) are written (and paid for) by the drug manufacturers. > |  > PDR only collects the descriptions (called "package inserts") and > |  > prints them in one place. > |   > |   Hi Tom, > |   > |   You are totally accurate on this statement. It is a shame that it has > |  become the "Bible" of pharmacology to many physicians today. It is > |  nothing but a compilation of sales propaganda. This is the same book > |  that listed Thalidomide as a "safe" drug several decades ago, the same > |  recently with Redux. I can only wonder how many apnea patients have died > |  from or are now suffering from M.V.P. as a result of this > |  disinformation. IMHO, the PDR is useful only for looking up the correct > |  spelling of a drug. If you want the real goodies on any medication, ask > |  the doctors that prescribe it and the patients that take it every day.

Actually, although PDR certainly serves a sales function, it is not so much sales propaganda as it is legal protection for the pharmaceutical industry. If a doctor uses a drug for purposes not listed in the package insert and something goes wrong, the manufacturer may have some degree of legal protection from lawsuit. It works the other way around, too. If a doctor uses the drug as described in the package insert and the patient croaks,  the doctor has some degree of legal protection. However, I would disagree that it is useless information. For many years there was no other convenient resource for prescribing information. Nowadays there are other resources but, as a result of publisher production schedules, none so up to date on new drugs as PDR — at least none that I know of. Most other countries have no similar publication, and envy us in the US with access to the PDR. It may not be complete as we would wish, but it is still, IMHO, useful. You are right that your local pharmacist is frequently a good source of information. A lot of these folks are really on top of things. Mine often knows more about counterindications and dosage information than my doctor. I am sure there are many drugs produced every year with the potential to become another Redux or Thalidomide, but the drug testing and approval process in the US is far from reckless. Most criticism I have read has complained that the procedure is too slow and conservative. Personally I am glad that I don’t have to make decisions about such things. Too thorough a procedure and people die because a drug is not yet available. Too quick and problems slip through. I know nothing about Klonopin, by the way. Just a lot about PDR. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> |   > |   Also, one of the most overlooked resources that we all have at our beck > |  on call is our local pharmacist. These folks have extensive (and > |  current) knowledge that goes WAY beyond putting pills from a small > |  bottle and into a little bottle. I would put my faith in my local > |  pharmacist any day before I would trust ANYTHING that was written about > |  medications by ANYONE on the internet. If you have a question about > |  medication that you are taking or might be thinking about taking, I > |  strongly suggest that you discuss it with your local pharmacist. Most of > |  these folks are bored stiff from filling pill bottles and typing labels > |  into a computer. Just catch them at a time that they are not super busy > |  and you can get a wealth of current accurate information for free. > |  Imagine the concept! :!)  Pharmacists are also the true experts on drug > |  interactions. I would feel safe in saying the average pharmacist knows > |  more about drug interactions that the average physician does. > |   > |   > |  > Although this is a valuable service, it > |  > doesn’t necessarily list all the ways a particular drug may  be used, > |  > as Charles correctly states. > |   > |   Agreed, that is why I commented on "off chart" applications of many > |  medications. IMHO, treating insomnia with Klonopin is a poor "off chart > |  utilization of Klonopin. It has the longest serum half life of all the > |  benzo drugs, and leave the patient groggy an "hung over" in the morning > |  for a considerable time. It is also quite addictive over the long run, > |  and frequently difficult and unpleasant to try to get off of. > |   > |   IMHO, there are no safe and effective drugs for insomnia. They all come > |  with a heavy price to pay down the line. IMHO, ANY medication for sleep > |  inducing should only be taken as an absolute necessity and then only for > |  as brief a period as possible. I have watched too many people suffer > |  from Halcion and Valium withdrawal in my lifetime. It aint pretty! :!( > |   > |  >I have even noticed in recent PDRs that > |  > some drug manufacturers have stopped including some of their older > |  > drugs in the publication at all. > |   > |   Yes. IMHO, this practice sucks! :!(  Just because a drug has been on > |  the market for decades and has been used safely and effectively by > |  million of people is no justification for not continuing to list it. It > |  is blatantly obvious that the drug manufactures care about one > |  thing…..MONEY!!!!!!  Once the patent expires on a drug and it goes > |  into generic manufacture, the profit motive for the drug company is > |  gone. Why would they want to sell a safe and proven effective medication > |  that costs 3 cents a pill when they can push their latest and greatest > |  "discovery" at 7-8 $ per pill. > |   > |   > |  > How they are getting this square with > |  > the FDA requirement that they circulate prescribing information to all > |  > doctors I don’t know. > |   > |   Good question. Especially for the "new" doctors. Yet another classic > |  case of what your doctor doesn’t know can kill you. > |   > |  ……..Best Wishes…….Bear…. > |  > > |  > —————————————————- > |  > "Trudy is Beauth, Beauth, Trudy"

Lancet study on SARS

Question:

Roy Anderson is a company man, he was bought by Wellcome, willingly, years ago http://www.whale.to/m/all/anderson.html Anything he says should be ignored. He’s encouraging speedy quarantine. So when folks disappear, I guess all anyone will need to do is murmur "SARS, you know", and all questions will cease.

You mean questions like, "why doesn’t he answer his telephone?" and "why doesn’t  he call me?" — | Microsoft: "A reputation for releasing inferior software will make | | it more difficult for a software vendor to induce customers to pay | | for new products or new versions of existing products."            |

Response:

Roy Anderson is a company man, he was bought by Wellcome, willingly, years ago http://www.whale.to/m/all/anderson.html Anything he says should be ignored.

# Last refuge of guys who can’t argue their case–ad hominem. — | Microsoft: "A reputation for releasing inferior software will make | | it more difficult for a software vendor to induce customers to pay | | for new products or new versions of existing products."            |

Response:

Anything he says should be ignored. He’s encouraging speedy quarantine. So when folks disappear, I guess all anyone will need to do is murmur "SARS, you know", and all questions will cease. You mean questions like, "why doesn’t he answer his telephone?" and "why doesn’t  he call me?"

No. I am noting that since Sept 11 2001, the "civilised world" has changed, fundamentally.  There are people who have, to all intents, simply disappeared from life:  they have never been allowed to return to their families. Including here in Aus. – there are those who never returned home. There are people being held without trial, eg in Cuba.   Then there was the Homeland Security legislation. Now there are quarantine laws, whereby someone can be simply removed into "quarantine".    The world has changed and continues to change.

Response:

I’m starting to agree with you, DC. After looking through some of the Quarantine info links today, I’ve found nothing that would cause me to doubt what you’ve written. Well.  I’m speechless. You don’t often see those words in these newsgroups. I’m trying to find a way to write this that doesn’t sound sarcastic and failing.  Rats.

I meant what I said, and still do.  Consequent to what I’ve learned about quarantine, it does not seem to be some sort of "big brother bogeyman" situation.  Instead, a difficult situation in societal terms is being dealt with in a way that seems entirely reasonable and humane.

Response:

Although I’m certainly no fan of the post-911 power grab, I think you’re painting with too broad a brush.

The link that I missed was the near-simultaneous bioweapons threat, in that instance anthrax transmission through the post. Deadly weapons, in the form of disease, were seen to be transmissable via the post, by our most ordinary forms of communication. It created an atmosphere of wariness and suspicion that for a time seemed to be all-pervasive, as well as disrupting normal postal communicatons. Now, with SARS,  transmission is not via the postal service, but by being in the vicinity of an infected person. And the consequences are not simply "becoming ill/ going to hospital", but carry the quarantine requirement for a time even if it turns out you don’t have the disease,  and there are legal repercussions, including imprisonment, for leaving quarantine. And I am not saying that quarantine is uncalled for, or is an inappropriate response.  Some such action seems *entirely* necessary, until or unless other ways are found of dealing with such newly emergent and highly virulent diseases. For instance, even though Singapore is not a model of civil liberties at the best of times and is one of the SARS hot zones, people under quarantine there were simply ordered to stay at home.  The supervision was so loose that several who were potentially contagious ignored the order and went out in public.  The Government’s response?  They were given tracking bracelets which would send an alarm to Public Health if they left home. Since their telephones, etc. still worked they were a *long* way from being "disappeared."

Answered elsewhere: Yes, I agree. I am simply noting some of the changes that are taking place in the world.

Response:

Although I’m certainly no fan of the post-911 power grab, I think you’re painting with too broad a brush. I’m starting to agree with you, DC. After looking through some of the Quarantine info links today, I’ve found nothing that would cause me to doubt what you’ve written.

Well.  I’m speechless. You don’t often see those words in these newsgroups. I’m trying to find a way to write this that doesn’t sound sarcastic and failing.  Rats. — | Microsoft: "A reputation for releasing inferior software will make | | it more difficult for a software vendor to induce customers to pay | | for new products or new versions of existing products."            |

Response:

The supervision was so loose that several who were potentially contagious ignored the order and went out in public.  The Government’s response? They were given tracking bracelets which would send an alarm to Public Health if they left home. I read where there’s a six month jail sentence for breaking quarantine, which has just been enacted, but it was unclear if that will be mandatory from the first offense. One guy was sentenced so far, after being out twice and bragging about it, in effect. (but I can’t find the link to that news item).

Since found,  BBC: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/3015917.stm http://tinyurl.com/bhvb – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Again, that would be in line with the US TB Q laws I think. Since their telephones, etc. still worked they were a *long* way from being "disappeared." True.  I agree with you.

Response:

SNIPPY Speedy quarantine has stopped SARS in its tracks in Vietnam. It may be the best ‘treatment’ available. Omigod, now Mark’s in the nursing group.  Must have followed Joel.

Sorry about the xposting. I’ll try to be more careful.

Response:

Roy Anderson is a company man, he was bought by Wellcome, willingly, years ago http://www.whale.to/m/all/anderson.html Anything he says should be ignored.

And will be by John, who is totally incapable of grasping the article Ilena posted (he’s a scientific illiterate).  However, saying "so and so is a company man" is not a valid response to claims about how SARS incubates and its mortality rate.  In fact, why John would get his knickers in a twist about this at all is hard to understand.  Maybe it’s a reflex.   — David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net      These are my opinions only, but they’re almost always correct.        "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants            were standing on my shoulders."  (Hal Abelson, MIT) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As a registered user of www.thelancet.com, you might be interested to know that research by UK epidemiologists and scientists from Hong Kong, fast-tracked for publication on THE LANCET’s website, reports results of the first major epidemiological study about severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS). Authors of the study highlight how concerted efforts to reduce the time from the onset of symptoms to quarantining in hospital is one of the most important public-health measures to reduce transmission and to potentially eradicate the disease. Christl Donnelly, Roy Anderson, and colleagues from Imperial College London, UK, the University of Hong Kong, and the Department of Health in Hong Kong, studied 1425 SARS cases from Hong Kong up to April 28, 2003. They report how, after the initial phase of exponential growth in SARS cases, public-health interventions have led to confirmed SARS cases dropping below 20 per day by April 28. Examples of such measures include the encouragement to report to hospital rapidly after the onset of clinical symptoms, the tracing of contacts of confirmed and suspected cases and quarantining, and the monitoring and restriction of travel for contacts. The average incubation period of SARS (the time between infection and the onset of symptoms) was estimated to be 6.4 days; the average time from the onset of clinical symptoms to hospital admission varied from three to five days-with longer intervals reported earlier in the epidemic. The case fatality rate, among those admitted to hospital, in patients 60 years of age and older is estimated to be far higher (43.3%, 95% confidence interval 35.2 to 52.4%) than in those below 60 (13.2%, 95% confidence interval 9.8 to 16.8%). Similar estimates were obtained using a second method: 55.0% (95% confidence interval 45.3 to 64.7%) for those aged 60 or older and 6.8% (95% confidence interval (95% confidence interval 4.0 to 9.6%) in those younger than 60. Furthermore, they comment that additional infections in the community that do not lead to hospitalisation or death would lower this fatality-rate estimate. Christl Donnelly comments: "Although this study shows that the fatality rate from SARS is higher than previously thought, we now know that public-health interventions have been successfully reducing the spread of the disease." Roy Anderson comments: "The epidemic has demonstrated the need for communication of risk which will inform and warn the public, in a way which will improve personal protection, without inducing high levels of anxiety and fear, as an essential part of epidemic control. A change in risk perception would potentially lead to an increase in early reporting of symptoms as well as improvements in hygiene and prevention of transmission." This study has been published early online at www.thelancet.com and is available by clicking the link below: http://www.thelancet.com/journal/vol361/iss9368/full/llan.361.9368.ea…

Response:

You mean questions like, "why doesn’t he answer his telephone?" and "why doesn’t  he call me?" No. I am noting that since Sept 11 2001, the "civilised world" has changed, fundamentally.  There are people who have, to all intents, simply disappeared from life:  they have never been allowed to return to their families. Including here in Aus. – there are those who never returned home. There are people being held without trial, eg in Cuba. Then there was the Homeland Security legislation. Now there are quarantine laws, whereby someone can be simply removed into "quarantine".    The world has changed and continues to change. The quarantine laws have been around for centuries.

True, and in particular the TB quarantine laws (U.S.) sound as if they’re the same principle. Although I’m certainly no fan of the post-911 power grab, I think you’re painting with too broad a brush.

I’m starting to agree with you, DC. After looking through some of the Quarantine info links today, I’ve found nothing that would cause me to doubt what you’ve written. For instance, even though Singapore is not a model of civil liberties at the best of times and is one of the SARS hot zones, people under quarantine there were simply ordered to stay at home.

Yes. I think that’s generally what happens in the US wrt TB? The Sg SARS laws even offer some financial reimbursement while under house quarantine, at least to those most disadvantaged. http://www.sars.gov.sg/family.html The supervision was so loose that several who were potentially contagious ignored the order and went out in public.  The Government’s response? They were given tracking bracelets which would send an alarm to Public Health if they left home.

I read where there’s a six month jail sentence for breaking quarantine, which has just been enacted, but it was unclear if that will be mandatory from the first offense. One guy was sentenced so far, after being out twice and bragging about it, in effect. (but I can’t find the link to that news item).  Again, that would be in line with the US TB Q laws I think. Since their telephones, etc. still worked they were a *long* way from being "disappeared."

True.  I agree with you.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anything he says should be ignored. He’s encouraging speedy quarantine. So when folks disappear, I guess all anyone will need to do is murmur "SARS, you know", and all questions will cease. You mean questions like, "why doesn’t he answer his telephone?" and "why doesn’t  he call me?" No. I am noting that since Sept 11 2001, the "civilised world" has changed, fundamentally.  There are people who have, to all intents, simply disappeared from life:  they have never been allowed to return to their families. Including here in Aus. – there are those who never returned home. There are people being held without trial, eg in Cuba.   Then there was the Homeland Security legislation. Now there are quarantine laws, whereby someone can be simply removed into "quarantine".    The world has changed and continues to change.

The quarantine laws have been around for centuries. Although I’m certainly no fan of the post-911 power grab, I think you’re painting with too broad a brush. For instance, even though Singapore is not a model of civil liberties at the best of times and is one of the SARS hot zones, people under quarantine there were simply ordered to stay at home.  The supervision was so loose that several who were potentially contagious ignored the order and went out in public.  The Government’s response?  They were given tracking bracelets which would send an alarm to Public Health if they left home. Since their telephones, etc. still worked they were a *long* way from being "disappeared." — | Microsoft: "A reputation for releasing inferior software will make | | it more difficult for a software vendor to induce customers to pay | | for new products or new versions of existing products."            |

Response:

[..] Are you equating having webpages loaded with copied bullshit with intelligence of some sort? As this group well knows, having webpages is no sign of normalcy or intelligence.

REPLY: Most do not rise to the level of "Junk Science." They are simply "junk."

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Roy Anderson is a company man, he was bought by Wellcome, willingly, years ago http://www.whale.to/m/all/anderson.html Anything he says should be ignored. And will be by John, who is totally incapable of grasping the article Ilena posted (he’s a scientific illiterate).  However, saying "so and so is a company man" is not a valid response to claims about how SARS incubates and its mortality rate.  In fact, why John would get his knickers in a twist about this at all is hard to understand.  Maybe it’s a reflex. Where are your web pages David, do inform us as to all your wisdom.

Are you equating having webpages loaded with copied bullshit with intelligence of some sort? As this group well knows, having webpages is no sign of normalcy or intelligence.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Roy Anderson is a company man, he was bought by Wellcome, willingly, years ago http://www.whale.to/m/all/anderson.html Anything he says should be ignored. And will be by John, who is totally incapable of grasping the article Ilena posted (he’s a scientific illiterate).  However, saying "so and so is a company man" is not a valid response to claims about how SARS incubates and its mortality rate.  In fact, why John would get his knickers in a twist about this at all is hard to understand.  Maybe it’s a reflex.

Where are your web pages David, do inform us as to all your wisdom. Jan

Response:

SNIPPY Speedy quarantine has stopped SARS in its tracks in Vietnam. It may be the best ‘treatment’ available. Omigod, now Mark’s in the nursing group.  Must have followed Joel. Earle

REPLY: I thought the nursing group was for women who are breast-feeding babies ……. Earle , what are you doing here!!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/TorontoSun/News/2003/05/08/81968.html – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As a registered user of www.thelancet.com, you might be interested to know that research by UK epidemiologists and scientists from Hong Kong, fast-tracked for publication on THE LANCET’s website, reports results of the first major epidemiological study about severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS). Authors of the study highlight how concerted efforts to reduce the time from the onset of symptoms to quarantining in hospital is one of the most important public-health measures to reduce transmission and to potentially eradicate the disease. Christl Donnelly, Roy Anderson, and colleagues from Imperial College London, UK, the University of Hong Kong, and the Department of Health in Hong Kong, studied 1425 SARS cases from Hong Kong up to April 28, 2003. They report how, after the initial phase of exponential growth in SARS cases, public-health interventions have led to confirmed SARS cases dropping below 20 per day by April 28. Examples of such measures include the encouragement to report to hospital rapidly after the onset of clinical symptoms, the tracing of contacts of confirmed and suspected cases and quarantining, and the monitoring and restriction of travel for contacts. The average incubation period of SARS (the time between infection and the onset of symptoms) was estimated to be 6.4 days; the average time from the onset of clinical symptoms to hospital admission varied from three to five days-with longer intervals reported earlier in the epidemic. The case fatality rate, among those admitted to hospital, in patients 60 years of age and older is estimated to be far higher (43.3%, 95% confidence interval 35.2 to 52.4%) than in those below 60 (13.2%, 95% confidence interval 9.8 to 16.8%). Similar estimates were obtained using a second method: 55.0% (95% confidence interval 45.3 to 64.7%) for those aged 60 or older and 6.8% (95% confidence interval (95% confidence interval 4.0 to 9.6%) in those younger than 60. Furthermore, they comment that additional infections in the community that do not lead to hospitalisation or death would lower this fatality-rate estimate. Christl Donnelly comments: "Although this study shows that the fatality rate from SARS is higher than previously thought, we now know that public-health interventions have been successfully reducing the spread of the disease." Roy Anderson comments: "The epidemic has demonstrated the need for communication of risk which will inform and warn the public, in a way which will improve personal protection, without inducing high levels of anxiety and fear, as an essential part of epidemic control. A change in risk perception would potentially lead to an increase in early reporting of symptoms as well as improvements in hygiene and prevention of transmission." This study has been published early online at www.thelancet.com and is available by clicking the link below: http://www.thelancet.com/journal/vol361/iss9368/full/llan.361.9368.ea…

line_publication.25595.1 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -For more information on how to receive your own personal weekly copy of THE LANCET

Dr. Sid to promote breastfeeding as 'chiropractic immunization'?

Question:

|Sid Williams, DC is the Founder of the largest chiropractic college in the |nation. I know him.  He’s part educator, part con man.

Response:

PREGNANT WOMEN:  MDs are closing birth canals up to 30%.  It’s EASY to open your birth canal!  See GASTALDO’S ABSTRACT at the very end of this post… Usenetters et al., Sid Williams, DC is the Founder of the largest chiropractic college in the nation. Really quite a remarkable man – he’s one modern reason that spinal manipulation is accessible worldwide… I’m hoping Dr. Sid will take time out from his chiropractic accreditation travails to help stop MDs from closing birth canals up to 30%…. (MDs:  If you must pull on babies’ heads – and sometimes you must – FIRST get women off their backs/butts at delivery.  According to your own literature, closing the birth canal can KILL.  See GASTALDO’S ABSTRACT below.) I’m also hoping Dr. Sid will help stop MDs from denying massive numbers of babies massive numbers of free daily immunizations. See below…. Interspersions ##### —– Original Message —– Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 8:21 PM Hey Todd.  Thanks for the note.

######  Tim, you are quite welcome.  My note was actually an Open Letter to you archived for global access.  It may be found by going to http://groups.google.com and searching "Gastaldo Langley PRE-weaned"…. I’ve always agreed with you on these things.

######  You spoke up for my right to speak up as I got censored from chiro-list.  I thank you for that. I really think it’s a shame (maybe criminal) with what babies must endure from birth to maturation.

######  Maybe criminal!!??? ######  It’s NOT "maybe criminal" – it *is* criminal that MDs are ignoring simple biomechanics and the medical literature to close birth canals up to 30%! ######  Even if MDs closing birth canals does NOT cause any of the brain bleeds in an estimated 4.6% of "healthy" babies – MDs have NO business ignoring simple biomechanics to close birth canals up to 30%.  It’s OBVIOUS criminal negligence. And to some extent (I’m sad to say) I think many DCs choose to turn their head to avoid the confrontation. Imagine chiropractors avoiding confrontation.

#######  No need to imagine it.  It’s been going on since BJ and DD started playing the "we-don’t-diagnose-or-treat" game.  The profession was BUILT by chiropractors avoiding confrontation. #######  MDs are OBVIOUSLY (criminally) closing birth canals senselessly – OBVIOUSLY (criminally) gruesomely manipulating most babies’ spines at birth – and DCs are remaining silent to avoid confrontation.  Or perhaps it’s CHIROPRACTIC ECONOMICS – DCs remaining silent because MDs are creating vertebral subluxation business for them! Keep up the good work.  I think you’re probably also right about folks in Texas not even giving a damn about our mess.  Take care.

######  I thank you for calling my work good but  I don’t recall saying the people in Texas don’t even give a damn about chiropractic’s mess.  I said they probably aren’t even *aware* – just like they aren’t even aware of MDs closing birth canals up to 30%. ######  Tim, you spoke up publicly about DCs beating up on Dr. Sid – yet you are not publicly speaking up about MDs beating up on babies – why? ######  Let’s at least agree that there isn’t anything MAYBE criminal about what MDs are doing to babies… ######  Let’s agree that – via silence – chiropractors (including ICA, ACA and Dr. Sid) are putting PROFESSIONAL health above PUBLIC health – babies be damned…. ######  MAYBE criminal my ass… ######  Failure of "The People" (MD-funded law enforcement) (state attorneys general) to act does NOT confer legality… ######  The chiropractic profession is PRETENDING that it can’t beat "medical science" and help babies… ######  The Dr. Sid debacle is just a side-show – part of what Texas Chiropractic College President Emeritus William David Harper, DC called "the fast political shuffle of chiropractic"… (It was Harper who called my attention to the Founder’s fundamental chiropractic hypothesis which I got published as the definition of chiropractic in Dorland’s Illustrated Medical Dictionary [1988, 1994, 2000].) ######  When chiropractic starts focusing on PUBLIC health – like for example on stopping MDs from closing birth canals up to 30% and gruesomely manipulating most babies’ spines at birth – THAT’S when the profession will make real progress. ######  The profession has a golden opportunity to market VERTEBRAL SUBLUXATION PREVENTION – *and* save tiny lives and tiny limbs – yet the profession – you included Tim – is IGNORING this golden opportunity. ######  Yes, whine publicly about what DCs (and Texans?) are doing to Dr. Sid and Life – but ALSO whine publicly – at least a little – about MDs beating up on babies… ######  Hell, I suspect that Dr. Sid still has sufficient clout that all by his lonesome *he* could mobilize chiro forces sufficient to stop the grisly obstetric travesty.  Ya folla? ######  "Something has come to my attention," he could say publicly, "and this something makes Life’s problems with CCE pale to insignificance…" ######  "MDs are closing birth canals up to 30% and gruesomely manipulating most babies’ spines at birth…" ######  "This mass *physical* child abuse being committed by MDs is compounded by mass IMMUNOLOGIC child abuse being committed by MDs…" ######  Tim, eventually chiro leaders are going to start speaking out. ######  I would LOVE to see Dr. Sid lead the way in saving tiny lives and tiny limbs and PREVENTING more vertebral subluxations than DCs will ever be able to charge to adjust by hand… ######  "Chiropractic immunization" – making breastfeeding/breastIMMUNIZATION rates skyrocket would just be gravy… ######  Dr. Sid could help expose the MD lie of omission – medicine’s failure to tell Americans that pregnant women scan for pathogens and manufacture IMMUNIZATIONS which they "inject" with their breasts – DAILY. ######  "The kicker" (Dr. Sid would say publicly) "is that chiropractic immunizations are thought to make MD-needle vaccinations work better!" Quoting Hanson and Telemo [1999]: "The improved defense against infection in the breast-fed infant is not just a matter of passive, temporary protection.  There is also a definite ACTIVE impact on the breast-fed infant’s immune system that makes it function more efficiently in defense against infections and in response to vaccines for years to come." [Hanson and Telemo in Ogra et al. Mucosal Im munology 1999:1501, emphasis added] See CDC ‘action’ on breastfeeding http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=xlwV8.2767%24… %40newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net #######  As he made breastfeeding rates skyrockey, Dr. Sid could help expose the School Exclusion Day Hoax/financial vaccination cattleprod…. See MD and DC students to promote vaccination together? (CDC = Centers for Disease Control and PREVENTION) http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=DWLR8.2906%24… 7%40newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net ######  Tim, why *are* DCs circling the chiro-wagons and shooting inward (at Dr. Sid) as MDs beat up on babies? ######  Sincerely, ######  Todd – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Tim Langley, D.C. Vinings Chiropractic 3599 Atlanta Road, Suite A-9 Smyrna, GA  30080 678-842-9911 FAX: 678-842-9922 www.viningschiropractic.com —–Original Message—– Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 11:03 PM Roughly half of all American babies are PRE-WEANED due to an MD lie of omission… It’s rather obvious mass immunologic child abuse by MDs.  See below… <snip According to ABCNews.com, "The American Academy of Pediatrics says all but 18 percent of mothers in the U.S. have weaned their child by age 1." –ABCNews.com

http://more.abcnews.go.com/sections/gma/goodmorningamerica/gma020709b… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – eeding_at_eight.html TRANSLATED:  AAP is saying that because of AAP’s LIE OF OMISSION – all but 18 percent of mothers in the U.S. stop giving their babies free daily immunizations by age 1. (!) AAP’s LIE OF OMISSION:   AAP is failing to tell Americans that breastfeeding mothers scan their environments for pathogens and manufacture IMMUNIZATIONS which they "inject" with their breasts – DAILY. All but 18 percent of mothers in the US have weaned by age 1?? Roughly half of all American babies are PRE-weaned – by AAP’s lie of omission…. Roughly half of all American babies never see a DROP of their own free immunization fluid (breastmilk)!! Ask yourself:  What percent of pregnant women – informed that they are capable of IMMUNIZING their babies daily – are going to fail to at least ATTEMPT to immunize/breastfeed their babies daily? VERY few mothers would willingly deny their babies free daily immunizations! Bottomline FACT:  The AAP’s lie of omission is denying massive numbers of babies massive numbers of free daily immunizations! It’s mass IMMUNOLOGIC child abuse by MDs! <snip ABCNews.com trotted out a breastfeeding oddity:  An EIGHT-year-old who is still sucking his mom’s breasts! "[H]is babysitter…called a child-abuse hotline after Kyle – then 5 years old and in the first grade – allegedly said he wanted to stop breast-feeding but ‘Mommy wouldn’t let me’…Although Stuckey denied she forced her son to nurse, Illinois child-welfare officials put her son in foster care…Now, a little over two years later, Kyle is back with his mom, and still nursing occasionally, although he is 8 years old."

http://more.abcnews.go.com/sections/gma/goodmorningamerica/gma020709b… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – eeding_at_eight.html The State of Illinois has its priorities screwed up big

… read more »

Response:

Best way to wean 2 y.o. off breast feeding

Question:

Hi, sorry to jump in without introducing myself- I used to be on a.s.b a year or two ago,and lost newsgroups when we changed ISPs- my name’s Helen, I’m in the UK, I have a son named Alex, who’ll be 3 in November, and a new one, Isaac, who was 1 last month. Can I ask why do you think your daughter should stop nursing? Most toddlers nurse as much for comfort as anything else (although breastmilk does contribute to the nutrition of a young toddler significantly, and the immunological benefits continue until sevrage.) and based on personal experience, it’s as good a way of comforting a child as any other.If, of course, you’re totally fed up and want your body back, that’s different. I just personally feel that setting an arbitrary limit for when your child should stop nursing doesn’t really work. If of course, you decide to go ahead,if you start by not offering the breast-don’t refuse her if she asks, just don’t offer. Then, try procrastinating, and delaying each nursing session by a few minutes- she may forget to ask again. If none of this works at all, I’d probably leave it for another 6 months or so, to be honest, but at that point, you just start saying no, and never sit down- offer lots of distractions. I’d hesitate to go down the "big -girl" route, complete with new toys, because a 2-year-old is NOT a big girl, and there are still a lot of things that you will be telling her that she is too small to do. Also, you’re asking her to give up something precious to her, which could start her thinking that growing up isn’t such a good thing- I know my kids, given a choice between breastfeeding or a bike would choose/have chosen breastfeeding every time, but maybe we’re just weird.But you could celebrate with toys and a party and stuff, because it is a pretty big deal- just don’t bribe. Sorry to sound so negative- it can be done, it’s just hard work for both ends of the partnership. Helen

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We have a two year old daughter who is very much still in to breast feeding and we can see no sign of her stopping in the long term future.  Does anyone have a suggestion as to ways of gently stopping the feeding (she eats normal food very heartily and so is feeding just for comfort), Try to give her an incentive like "when you stop breastfeeding you’ll be a big girl and will be able to get a (Insert toy, Bike, Whatever the "Big Girl Prize" is) " And try to cut her down a little at a time, Soon she’ll noty be intersted much anymore and she’ll get the new toy to play with and the satisfaction that now she’s a "Big Girl". My 3 yr old cousin nursed until her 3rd birthday saying that when she was three she would be a big girl and not need to nurse anymore. I see no problem nursing until they ween themselves or understand that they don’t really need it anymore and it needs to go away like diapers. Bessie …Loving being a mommy

Response:

We have a two year old daughter who is very much still in to breast feeding and we can see no sign of her stopping in the long term future.  Does anyone have a suggestion as to ways of gently stopping the feeding (she eats normal food very heartily and so is feeding just for comfort),

Try to give her an incentive like "when you stop breastfeeding you’ll be a big girl and will be able to get a (Insert toy, Bike, Whatever the "Big Girl Prize" is) " And try to cut her down a little at a time, Soon she’ll noty be intersted much anymore and she’ll get the new toy to play with and the satisfaction that now she’s a "Big Girl". My 3 yr old cousin nursed until her 3rd birthday saying that when she was three she would be a big girl and not need to nurse anymore. I see no problem nursing until they ween themselves or understand that they don’t really need it anymore and it needs to go away like diapers. Bessie …Loving being a mommy

Response:

We have a two year old daughter who is very much still in to breast feeding and we can see no sign of her stopping in the long term future.  Does anyone have a suggestion as to ways of gently stopping the feeding (she eats normal food very heartily and so is feeding just for comfort), Regards David & Elizabeth

Response:

Guess what?-I like hemo better!

Question:

Carrie posted the following article in the Peritoneal Forum http://brumley.com/renal/pdboard.html Dated  : April 22, 2001 at 14:28:39 Subject: Guess what?-I like hemo better! http://brumley.com/renal/pdmessages/4387.html After 3 weeks on hemo, I have a very positive report!  Because of a problem with constant gram negative peritonitis I had to have my pd cath removed and go on hemo for a few weeks while the doctors try to determine the cause of my peritonitis. I was absolutely terrified of hemo and viewed it as the beginning of the end….boy have I changed my mind..not only do I feel much better..I’ve lost that pd pot belly and feel so much more comfortable moving around..Yes the placement of the temp hemo catheter in the chest was not pleasant and the surgery in the arm for the fistula was not the best experience I’ve had, but the freedom from 4 exchanges a day is really great.  I feel just fine between hemo treatments, with plenty of energy and no swelling in the legs at all.  Within two months my fistula should be ready to use.  I have seen the needles and I’m determined to get used to it.  I don’t feel anything during the actual treatment(3 1/2 hrs.) I just bring a good book and relax.  T! he main thing is that from treatment to treatment I continue to feel better and better.  I was very surprised by this positive outcome and when I asked my nephrologist he wasn’t at all surprised..His response was that while neither treatment is ideal there have been more advancements in hemo dialysis than in peritoneal dialysis.  So I guess what I’m trying to say is that hemo dialysis shouldn’t be feared and that it is very possible to have a good outcome with that mode of treatment…Hopefully I will continue to feel the same way after a few months.  I don’t know if there is any connection to my type of kidney disease,(polycystic kidney disease) and my feeling so much better on hemo dialysis…but I think that the fact that my kidneys are so large with PKD, that might have been the reason I felt so huge and bloated while doing capd.  By the way I am officialy on the transplant list at UCLA.  Hope that you all are all doing fine and if any of you have to go on hemo dialysis…! It really doesn’t have to be bad at all!!

Response:

Sheila posted the following article in the Peritoneal Forum http://brumley.com/renal/pdboard.html Dated  : April 22, 2001 at 16:48:06 Subject: Re: Guess what?-I like hemo better! http://brumley.com/renal/pdmessages/4388.html I’m glad to hear you like hemo.  I guess that’s why they call it treatment choices.  I personally just got off hemo because I hated it.  I just started pd and love it.  Getting used to 4 exchanges a day takes some getting used to but I hated my time slot at hemo and those needles especially when I was infiltrated!  Which happened a few times.  I didn’t dislike hemo until I got stuck a few times and especially started disliking it when I was infiltrated the first time.  That hurts like he**  My arm was black and blue from my shoulder to below my elbow it took over a month to clear up and the pain took weeks to heal.  Especially around my elbow.  Heating pads works great though keep that in mind for future reference.  Especially moist heating pads.  Good luck I hope it works out for you more than it did for me.  Sheila

Response:

Martha S. posted the following article in the Peritoneal Forum http://brumley.com/renal/pdboard.html Dated  : April 23, 2001 at 03:17:28 Subject: Re: Guess what?-I like hemo better! http://brumley.com/renal/pdmessages/4394.html Carrie, I am glad to hear you sounding so much happier and more at ease! You have been through a hard time for sure. You are also living proof that different things suit different people.    I was surprised at this comment about your doctor: < His response was that while neither treatment is ideal there have been more advancements in hemo dialysis than in peritoneal dialysis. > because I am not sure that is quite accurate. Pd is and has been a very "hot" field for research and development, both scientifically and within the industry; in fact, there have been many innovative advances in pd just within the last decade and especially within the last few years. Pd definitely continues to be an area of intense focus in the renal world and that interest is escalating.      Some doctors prefer having their patients use hd because the doctors themselves are more accustomed to it, because they are more educated about it, or because, being inexperienced with pd, they consider hd to be their area of expertise and are not comfortable tackling a new method of dialysis, especially one that is so patient-led. This is unfortunate but, from what I have come to understand, there will be a greater routine recommendation and use of pd in the future. All this reminds me of back in the 60’s and 70’s when doctors, being used to working with formula feeding, treated breast-feeding like some sort of new-fangled and dangerous notion, like a passing fad; now the doctors are much more knowledgeable and supportive about mothers nursing their babies. I suspect that the same thing will happen with hd and pd.    Having said all that, I do want to say again that I am delighted that you have found a form of dialysis that suits you and that you can now go about the wonderful business of enjoying the gift of life that good dialysis give to a person with esrd. Congratulations, and thank you for letting us know how well things are going for you. – Martha S.

Response:

sue posted the following article in the Peritoneal Forum http://brumley.com/renal/pdboard.html Dated  : April 23, 2001 at 11:29:57 Subject: Re: Guess what?-I like hemo better! http://brumley.com/renal/pdmessages/4395.html I am happy that you feel confortable with hemo.  I was being worked up for hemo, too, last year and then decided to do PD.  For me PD has been a Godsend.  I had a mother who was on hemo for seven years, so I’m more familiar with dialysis than I care to be.   What Martha says about peritoneal dialysis is very true.  It actually has been around for a long time, although it is more frequently used in Europe than here in the USA.  I believe one of the hang-ups that doctors have is their need to be in control.  They lose sight of the fact that even though we have been called patients, and some of them, at least have this God feeling, a feeling perpetuated by the notion that they are Gods by many laymen, the truth of the matter is that they are only human, we are clients and they are working for us.  Anyway, many physicians lean toward hemo, because I think there is a predjudice that we are unable to function to the excellent standard of care for ourselves that a professional can.  Who will care more for us than ourselves.  Ask any nurse, what they think of doctors, and you will be liberated. I agree that there is a certain population of people with kidney failure who should be on hemodialysis, but there are many more out there who are on hemo that should have been given the opportunity to do PD.  I wish you great success with your fistula and hope that you continue to feel well.  Sue

Response:

janeA posted the following article in the Peritoneal Forum http://brumley.com/renal/pdboard.html Dated  : April 23, 2001 at 11:54:47 Subject: Re: Guess what?-I like hemo better! http://brumley.com/renal/pdmessages/4396.html I am sitting here in la-la-land(HCT 32/hgb 10.9) and reading about drugs in renal failure–with HD it lists %  of dose of a drug to be given.But,for PD it often says:No Data. Is the peritonium a good membrane for drugexcretion??

Response:

Nerissa posted the following article in the Peritoneal Forum http://brumley.com/renal/pdboard.html Dated  : April 23, 2001 at 16:57:46 Subject: Re: Guess what?-I like hemo better! http://brumley.com/renal/pdmessages/4398.html Dear Carrie, I’m glad HD is working out for you.  It’s no secret that I’m a PD cheerleader, but we should be grateful that there are choices available to us. As far as physician preference goes, I’ve stated before that doctors, especially of the "old school" tend to choose hemo for their patients because, I think, they don’t quite trust PD to do the job.  On the other hand, my labs are great and I feel good, so my "old school" doc is accepting my choice and supporting me. Best of luck with hemo. Nerissa

Response:

sue posted the following article in the Peritoneal Forum http://brumley.com/renal/pdboard.html Dated  : April 23, 2001 at 21:27:09 Subject: Re: Guess what?-I like hemo better! http://brumley.com/renal/pdmessages/4402.html Hey Jane, What’s with your bloods?  I hope you are taking epogen to boost your bone marrow to make more red blood cells, and also iron which becomes depleted when you use epogen.  I began epo seven years before I needed to be on dialysis, so I wouldn’t suffer the exhaustion and other problems due to low hemoglobins and hematocrits.  I hope you are doing the same.  Those levels are way to low, and you don’t have to be on dialysis to use epogen.  It is given now for pre-ESRD as well.   I think the reason that they use hemodialysis for drug removal as when someone overdoses is that hemo is more efficient in this.  In am emergency, the doctors can access a large blood vessel in the chest and dialyze the blood to remove the offensive drugs or toxins right away.  PD is a more gentle type of dialysis that takes longer to do certain jobs.

Response:

Bowel Endo

Question:

Hey Vanessa, The Endometriosis Research Center has a ton of fact sheets on endo related sheet which has excellent info.  Also my endo specialist, Dr. Cook, has info on the subject as well. www.drcook.com/adca5.html is an excellent article on bowel endo.  If you do a search under bowel endometriosis there are also pictures there as well as other articles.    Best of luck to you and I hope you find answers and relief soon. Carey — John’s page:  MENDO – Men and Endometriosis: http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Spa/8449/ Carey’s Endo Window with Endo Sister’s Survival Kit: http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Spa/8509/

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Girls I have been reading this newsgroup for a week or two now. I really like being able to read the differnet postings. I have had endo for 10yrs.  I have had 8 laps, 2 of which were in the last 7 months.  I am in the most amount of pain that I have ever been in.  I have done some research and I believe I have endo on my bowel.  I am currently waiting to see an endo specialtist in Toronto. I am feeling awful down today.  Somedays are good, some not so good.  I have tried to stay working throught his ordeal and so far I have done alright. Today I feel pretty bad emotionally and physically.  My stomach is swollen so bad my pants don’t fit, the pain is getting worse and the worse the pain gets the more frightened i get, I am trying to keep my hopes up but I find today all I have the energy for is to stay awake. I am sure all the women with endo go throuh this somedays. I am sorry for dumping I was hoping it would make me feel better to let it our. My interest is in finding as much about endometriosis of the bowel as possible, in the hopes that it will help me feel not so helpless.  My question is have any experiences with bowel endo they would like to share? Any information would be appreciated. — Vanessa Robinson Office Manager Oshawa Airport

Response:

Hi Girls <snip My interest is in finding as much about endometriosis of the bowel as possible, in the hopes that it will help me feel not so helpless.  My question is have any experiences with bowel endo they would like to share? Any information would be appreciated. — Vanessa Robinson Office Manager Oshawa Airport

Hi, Vanessa.  I’m sorry you’re not feeling well.   I had a bowel resection last year after I developed endo lesions in the bowel.  I also had a hysterectomy at the same time.  Since the surgery, I’ve felt great, and have had no recurrence of pain.  The surgery itself wasn’t pleasant, or maybe I should say the week in hospital post-surgery wasn’t very pleasant, but it beat the heck out of the endo symptoms, and I’m glad I did it.  My surgeons were superb, and there have been no post-surgical complications at all. Best of luck; I hope you’re better soon.  —–  Posted via NewsOne.Net: Free (anonymous) Usenet News via the Web  —–   http://newsone.net/ — Free reading and anonymous posting to 60,000+ groups    NewsOne.Net prohibits users from posting spam.  If this or other posts

Response:

Hi Girls I have been reading this newsgroup for a week or two now. I really like being able to read the differnet postings. I have had endo for 10yrs.  I have had 8 laps, 2 of which were in the last 7 months.  I am in the most amount of pain that I have ever been in.  I have done some research and I believe I have endo on my bowel.  I am currently waiting to see an endo specialtist in Toronto. I am feeling awful down today.  Somedays are good, some not so good.  I have tried to stay working throught his ordeal and so far I have done alright. Today I feel pretty bad emotionally and physically.  My stomach is swollen so bad my pants don’t fit, the pain is getting worse and the worse the pain gets the more frightened i get, I am trying to keep my hopes up but I find today all I have the energy for is to stay awake. I am sure all the women with endo go throuh this somedays. I am sorry for dumping I was hoping it would make me feel better to let it our. My interest is in finding as much about endometriosis of the bowel as possible, in the hopes that it will help me feel not so helpless.  My question is have any experiences with bowel endo they would like to share? Any information would be appreciated. — Vanessa Robinson Office Manager Oshawa Airport

Response:

.What were your symptoms re: bowel endo??  Has anyone had anal fissures associated with their bowel endo?   </PRE</HTM

Symptoms: Severe constipation Upset stomach w/ gas (belching) at time of ovulation Excessive gas w/ period that would not move,  – just kept extending the size of my stomach (cannot wear anything around my waist!) — very painful Upset stomach w/ period Severe pain just prior to bowel movements w/ period Daily pain in left abdomen — sometimes dull ache, sometimes burning, sometimes bruised feeling, always pulling (adhesions, I am sure) Low Back Ache (prior to surgery, this was DAILY) W/ the stomach problems at ovulation and w/ my period, it seemed that I only had a short time of relief was just after my period and then the whole cycle would start again.   That’s about it.  I can’t help you w/ the fissures as I don’t know anything about it. Hope this information helps you Laurie

Response:

Hi Laurie – What were your symptoms re: bowel endo??  Has anyone had anal fissures associated with their bowel endo?  

Response:

Hi Helen  – I KNOW my bowel is involved w/ my endo.  I had surgery in January where ONCE AGAIN my bowel was attached to my uterus and both ovaries. I could actually feel them growing back.  Two weeks after surgery, I could feel the old adhesion pain.  As my bowel symptoms got worse, I went to a GI that my RE referred me to.  I had a colonoscopy yesterday, and like Helen they found nothing.  I am happy that deadly diseases have been ruled out, now I can work on alleviating the pain/ and discomfort I have lived w/ for years.  I will deal w/ it.  I have gotten some rellief from surgery and will try to prolong the inevitable next surgery.   Laurie

Response:

Hi Helen, I too have that same problem. My surgical reports show the right bowel to sidewall adhesions and dense omental adhesions. Just as Carey said, my adhesions were only snipped in the middle, leaving them dangling to reattach and strangle my insides once again. Mine feel all bunched up on the right side. I have an appt. with a new GI doc. So hopefully this doc will be good with me and get me back into good shape. I am praying that it is only adhesions on my intestines and not endo implants. Let us know how you are doing and I am hoping you feel better soon. Hugs, Birgit http://members.aol.com/GittiO/home.html

Response:

Dear Helen, I don’t have severe endo on my bowel, but I have had and possibly (probably!) have scar tissue adhesions attached to parts of my bowel. I’m experiencing the exact same symptoms now as I did the first time around. I suspect in my case that the adhesions are irritating parts of my colon and causing an attack of Irritable Bowel Syndrome. The sharp pains underneath my left-hand rib cage are from that portion of intestine spasming and I also get the non-painful throbbing sensations. It’s called a spastic colon. Different things can cause IBS. I dearly love green bell peppers, but even a little bite of one makes me a gross housemate! Sometimes the spasms can get so strong that if I hold real still, you can actually feel and sometimes see my side move! Ewwwww! GROSS! Anyway…adhesions or endo implants can irritate your pelvic tissues (an understatement here!) and if they’re attached to any part of your bowel, it can make you feel like your entire innards system is covered with endo. My advice…stay away from or limit foods that promote excessive regularity, like coffee, and from foods that can constipate you, like bananas. Eat a well-balanced, healthy diet and try something like Metamucil. There is something like that on the market that does not promote gas. I can’t think of its name, but check into that one especially. Good luck  to you! Kristy

Dear Endo Sisters: I would like to speak with someone who has severe bowel endo.  I recently had a colonoscopy and nothing was found. I keep having this strange sensations along my colon and pelvic area…Burning sensations on both the left and right sides to my rib

cage….stabbing/pinching – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -sensations….this constant, non painful throbbing sensation….and a feeling like something is "stuck".  Has anyone had their colon actually adhered to the abdominal wall?  During surgery…what was the outcome?  Resectioning? or can it be lasered off if it has not invaded the bowels? Thank you! Helen

Response:

Dear Endo Sisters: I would like to speak with someone who has severe bowel endo.  I recently had a colonoscopy and nothing was found. I keep having this strange sensations along my colon and pelvic area…Burning sensations on both the left and right sides to my rib cage….stabbing/pinching sensations….this constant, non painful throbbing sensation….and a feeling like something is "stuck".  Has anyone had their colon actually adhered to the abdominal wall?  During surgery…what was the outcome?  Resectioning? or can it be lasered off if it has not invaded the bowels? Thank you! Helen

Response:

Helen, Each of my surgeries showed my colon attached to my left pelvic wall by adhesions.  And I have the EXACT pains you are describing.  Even the ones way up under rib cage area.  During my (not done by specialist operations), they didn’t do anything except rip the adhesions apart in the middle which just leaves two ends hanging to reattach themselves to somewhere else! Adhesions need to be removed from both ends and taken out completely in order to give you the best results.  My last surgery in Dec at a well known teaching hospital shows my colon attached to side wall, left ovary, tube and uterus too, and they didn’t remove all the adhesion and endo hides in those adhesions lots of times too, and most weren’t removed after viewing the video.  They also didn’t tell me this was like that inside, I had to see it for myself.  Bowel resection only has to be done if the endo has penetrated the bowel wall deeply enough that perforation is suspected to occur or has occured (which you would know that), or to remove the endo deep enough would cause perforation, then they do the resection.  But usually the endo can be lasered off and adhesions removed, BUT you have to get a doc willing to work in these areas that is knowledgeable and skilled to do this.  Please find a specialist on endo if you can.  Best wishes to you. Hope this helps. — In Friendship, John and Carey Florida ~~~Perception is Reality~~~ John’s web page: MENDO – For Men Whose Women Have Endometriosis: http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Spa/8449/ Carey’s Endo Window – Includes the "Endo Sister’s Survival Kit": http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Spa/8509/ Dear Endo Sisters: I would like to speak with someone who has severe bowel endo.  I recently had a colonoscopy and nothing was found. I keep having this strange sensations along my colon and pelvic area…Burning sensations on both the left and right sides to my rib

cage….stabbing/pinching – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – sensations….this constant, non painful throbbing sensation….and a feeling like something is "stuck".  Has anyone had their colon actually adhered to the abdominal wall?  During surgery…what was the outcome?  Resectioning? or can it be lasered off if it has not invaded the bowels? Thank you! Helen

Response:

IBS or its symptoms are associated with endo. And although I’m very anemic I don’t take vitamins or iron because they make me sick. Strange but true. Yolanda in NYC

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Cristy, Are you still taking Pre-natal vitamins???? I get the same type of bowl pain as you desribed…I’ve been told I have IBS and that it is a common partner to Endo.   Anyway the Vitamins can cause more constipation, which as you know, causes more pain! Just a thought, but either way you should mention this to your doctor. And about the spotting.  I didn ‘t get a period back for about 2 months after I stopped nursing my son….Are you still breast feeding?  It’s very normal to not have a period when your nursing. Hope you feel better soon! Kimb

Response:

Christy and Group: Read THE ENDOMETRIOSIS SOURCE BOOK  published by the Endometriosis Assoc and Mary Lou Ballweg. It includes a chapter on Endo and the Bowel and the Intestines. I think you may get some answers. Yolanda in NYC

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all, This is a question that relates to post partum pregnancy as well as Endo. I’ve mentioned here in the past I had stage 4 endo and have had 3 laps. Been on all the lovely pain meds, including a year of Lupron injections. A lot of Endo was found on my bowel and my bladder. I have recently gave birth to a beautiful baby girl, 6 months ago.  After she was born, bowel movements were very difficult.  It was like trying to pass a rock, they became quite painful.  I had painful bowel movements during my periods, but it was just running to the bathroom and when I would go, the cramps in my stomach would almost make me stop.  I haven’t had a period for about a year and a half now (9 months of being pregnant, and 6 months of breastfeeding) I’ve had occasional spotting, with minimal cramping, which I can’t figure out if its my period or not. Anyway, I was on suppositories and stool softeners for months and finally took myself off them a month or two ago and everything seemed to be getting back to normal.  Bowel movements weren’t painful and were every day (which is normal for me!)  But the past few days, its like its going backwards. The doctor thought I possibly had a "fisher" because when I would go, one spot kept tearing and would cause pain and sometimes bleeding.  Well the past few days, the bowel movements are like rock again and there is bleeding.  Today there was more in the stool, or on it, from when it passed through it tore and I was bleeding there too. Not sure if this could relate to my Endo at all. I would appreciate any advice or suggestions you could give me.  I am to see my family doc on Tuesday, but may call today to see if its serious and am to see my GYN on April 11th. Thanks!! Christy

Response:

Cristy, Are you still taking Pre-natal vitamins???? I get the same type of bowl pain as you desribed…I’ve been told I have IBS and that it is a common partner to Endo.   Anyway the Vitamins can cause more constipation, which as you know, causes more pain! Just a thought, but either way you should mention this to your doctor.   And about the spotting.  I didn ‘t get a period back for about 2 months after I stopped nursing my son….Are you still breast feeding?  It’s very normal to not have a period when your nursing. Hope you feel better soon! Kimb

Response:

Hi all, This is a question that relates to post partum pregnancy as well as Endo. I’ve mentioned here in the past I had stage 4 endo and have had 3 laps. Been on all the lovely pain meds, including a year of Lupron injections.  A lot of Endo was found on my bowel and my bladder. I have recently gave birth to a beautiful baby girl, 6 months ago.  After she was born, bowel movements were very difficult.  It was like trying to pass a rock, they became quite painful.  I had painful bowel movements during my periods, but it was just running to the bathroom and when I would go, the cramps in my stomach would almost make me stop.  I haven’t had a period for about a year and a half now (9 months of being pregnant, and 6 months of breastfeeding) I’ve had occasional spotting, with minimal cramping, which I can’t figure out if its my period or not. Anyway, I was on suppositories and stool softeners for months and finally took myself off them a month or two ago and everything seemed to be getting back to normal.  Bowel movements weren’t painful and were every day (which is normal for me!)  But the past few days, its like its going backwards. The doctor thought I possibly had a "fisher" because when I would go, one spot kept tearing and would cause pain and sometimes bleeding.  Well the past few days, the bowel movements are like rock again and there is bleeding.  Today there was more in the stool, or on it, from when it passed through it tore and I was bleeding there too. Not sure if this could relate to my Endo at all. I would appreciate any advice or suggestions you could give me.  I am to see my family doc on Tuesday, but may call today to see if its serious and am to see my GYN on April 11th. Thanks!! Christy

Response:

I am going to have to ask my doc about the seprafilm. Thank you for the suggestions. Hugs, Birgit http://members.aol.com/GittiO/home.html

Response:

Birgit,   Dr. Cook uses this Seprafilm and says it is fantastic and seems to be doing the trick…. — In Friendship, John and Carey Florida If you must take a step into the darkness of the unknown, believe one of two things will happen….. either you will find something solid to stand on, or you will be taught to fly.                   ~~~Patrick Overton~~~ John’s web page: MENDO – For Men Whose Women Have Endometriosis: http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Spa/8449/ Carey’s Endo Window – Includes the "Endo Sister’s Survival Kit": http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Spa/8509/ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Birgit, If you are going back for surgery and could get surgical adhesions again, you might want to look into a FDA approved product for preventing surgical adhesions called Seprafilm. It is a company called Genzyme that makes it and I think they have a Web site. Ask your surgeon about it. I personally would insist on it. It is very safe and is made from a natural chemical found in your body. You may also want to find out if it was available when you had your last surgery and if it was, seek appropriate adice. Hope this helps and best wishes. MauiWowie

Response:

Hi Birgit, If you are going back for surgery and could get surgical adhesions again, you might want to look into a FDA approved product for preventing surgical adhesions called Seprafilm. It is a company called Genzyme that makes it and I think they have a Web site. Ask your surgeon about it. I personally would insist on it. It is very safe and is made from a natural chemical found in your body. You may also want to find out if it was available when you had your last surgery and if it was, seek appropriate adice. Hope this helps and best wishes. MauiWowie

Response:

Breastfeeding

Question:

All I can say is 29 years ago I had to make a decision. Take medicine and get healthy or continue on a downward spiral and nurse. Well, after lots of tears and plenty of anger and frustration I made the decision that I knew all along that I would have to make. I had to get healthy! A sick mother is useless to a child. A healthy happy mom is probably more important in the long run than a nursing mom. My advice is take care of yourself. Be thankful you have the alternative of formula because it is truly these situations that formula should be used. Pity those that choose not to nurse because it fails to fit their lifestyles. After my second child was born I was asked to help out at a local hospital with a baby that was failing to survive. (In those days it was a simple TB test first.) I went to the hospital once a day and pumped milk for that baby. I also found several more mothers that would do the same thing. Six weeks later the baby left the hospital. If you really find formula repulsing consider a wet nurse. I was fortunate to have a sister with babies when I had mine. Many times we traded babysitting/nursing so that the other could do something. Today there are several precautions that must be taken before doing something like that. Aside from TB there is AIDS and probably a host more. Consider talking to your doctor about it and contact the LeLeche League in your area or a nursing advocate. (Things have changed in the last 25 years.) Protect your own health but mostly protect the health of that child!!!! I don’t think you have many choices. 1) Stop meds and nurse and watch your health deteriorate to the point that you can no longer function as a mother. Running after balls at 2 PM and rocking a baby at 2 AM is important! 2) Continue to take your meds and nurse chancing the child’s eyesight or something else of a lesser known side effect. 3) Find a wet nurse.  4) Bottle feed knowing that your health and the baby’s health is of the up most importance. Remember that millions of children were raised on formula for years with no side-effects. These kids grew up and became today’s teachers, lawyers, doctors, computer specialists, Nobel prize winners, corporate CEOs, etc.. Today’s formulas are much better than the stuff being doled out in 1930’s and even in the 1970’s. Spend a few minutes and check for websites of the formula companies. Write to them and ask how close they have come to imitating Mother’s Milk. Explain your situation. Most of these companies will stand on their heads to help. Bev Jason Q. Paulsel wrote in message

<5VKR4.3904$Up6.7420…@news-east.usenetserver.com>… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Hello all… I am a 28 year old registered nurse, diagnosed 16 months ago >with Lupus.  I currently take 400 mg Plaquenil bid and do relatively well. >I am 32 weeks pregnant with my son, Nicholas, and I need your help.  Have >any of you ladies breastfed your children while on Plaquenil?  I posed the >question to my rheumatologist today who told me that it would not be a good >idea because it could cause retinal changes in Nick’s eyes.  However, the >American Academy of Pediatrics, which is usually so slow to give it’s >approval to any medications with breastfeeding, has given Plaquenil a >favorable rating.  So, now I’m just faced with a decision…  to a) stop the >Plaquenil and risk getting so sick I can’t care for either of my sons, b) >continue to take the Plaquenil and risk ruining Nick’s vision irreparably, >or c) feed with formula, which I consider a last resort for me.  Please, >please don’t flame me for not wanting to formula feed– it’s a very deeply >personal decision for me.  I just need to know if any of you breastfed your >children while on the med and have positive results to report. >Thank you very much, >Laura Paulsel, RN

Response:

IMHO, I would never take that chance! Eye sight is much more important than breast feeding… No offense but approved or disapproved the drug is still in your body… If you stopped taking the drug you would still have to wait for it to pass through your system before starting to breast feed. I wish you the best either way. mary/az

Response:

you know Janers both you and Andy have brought up something every important, why would they have her continue to take Plaquinal being pegnant? It’s a drug that isn’t reccomended during pregnancy! I just looked it up in my PDR!! Mary

Response:

Besides the obvious side effects, I was specifically asked if I had young children at home when I was prescribed the drug-by the doctor and pharmacist. They stressed to me how imperative it was to keep plaquenil away from them as it is fatal to children if ingested.  Cindy

Response:

I missed your original post, but KC posted to Hamline that it was about BF and taking plaquenil.  I have a 7 year old and a 7 week old.  For this last baby, all of my docs (high risk OBs, peds, and rheum) advised against pregnancy and bf’ing while taking plaquenil because of the possible toxicity.  This is quite a different stance from the one they took during my first pregnancy (same docs) when I was actually on plaquenil while pregnant and tried to bf when she was born and they were all okay with me being on plaq. (I was not able to bf the first time, and could not this time because of the drugs I had to start right after delivery.) I will tell you that my 7 year old has been wearing glasses since she was 3 and they can’t rule out that the vision problems may be due to the plaq I took while pregnant, but at the time the risk of the medicine outweighed the risk of major probs from the flare I was in. I don’t know what symptoms you are using the plaq for but I can say that there are much worse drugs to be on than it.  If that is the only drug you are taking and all your symptoms are under control, I would say to have a long talk with all the docs for their input, do medline searches, etc and come to a decision YOU feel comfortable with and your doctors are willing to agree to. BFing is very important (if you can do it – I would have loved to have done it with both of mine), but don’t ever feel guilty if you have to formula feed.  Things just happen, and in a lupoids life, more stuff happens than to most folk. <g>  At this point in my life, I, personally, would not bf while taking plaq, but this is because I know a few people who have had some of the more bizarre reactions to plaq that you read about (muscle weakness, resp shutdown, etc). There are 2 other newsgroups for bf’ing and perhaps some of the moms on there would have more info on the pros and cons and perhaps help you work through the medication dilemma.  They are alt.support.breastfeeding and misc.kids.breastfeeding. Feel free to contact me privately. — Tracy L. Carter   tlcar…@utk.edu Maryville (near Knoxville), Tennessee, USA "We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of dreams."

Response:

I am back and I found something out.  Taken from Health Information Library Cleveland clinic Health system Quote,,, unless you are taking it (plaquenil) for malaria or liver disease caused by protozoa, use of this medicine is not recommended during pregnancy.  In animal studies, hydrozychloroquine has been shown to cause damage to the central nervous system(brain and spinal cord) of the fetus, including damage to hearing and sense of balance, bleeding inside the eyes and other eye problems.  However, when given in low doses (once a week) to prevent malaria, this medicine has not been shown to cause birth defects or other problems in pregnant women. Breast feeding:  A very small amount of hydroxchloroquine passes into the breast mild.  It has not been repoeted to cause problems in nursing babies to date.  However, babies and children are especially sensitive to the effects of hydrozychloroquine. No choice for me on this one.  Formula….. — Janers

Response:

Jason-I’m an R.N. whose specialty was OB/GYN and in answer to your question re:  breastfeeding while taking Plaquenil, my response would be an unequivical No!  The concept can be argued pro and con by non-lupus and lupus specialists, but why, why, risk this?  Have you considered consulting La Leche about this?  They may have encountered this or something similar and be able to be neutral.  I can’t be. I’d not risk  anything with that little one.  Good Luck. Stay informed and never stop asking the questions, your heart and brain will help you decide what’s best.  Kim * Sent from AltaVista http://www.altavista.com Where you can also find related Web Pages, Images, Audios, Videos, News, and Shopping.  Smart is Beautiful

Response:

In article <5VKR4.3904$Up6.7420…@news-east.usenetserver.com>, Jason Q. Paulsel <paul…@usa.net> writes – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Hello all… I am a 28 year old registered nurse, diagnosed 16 months ago >with Lupus.  I currently take 400 mg Plaquenil bid and do relatively well. >I am 32 weeks pregnant with my son, Nicholas, and I need your help.  Have >any of you ladies breastfed your children while on Plaquenil?  I posed the >question to my rheumatologist today who told me that it would not be a good >idea because it could cause retinal changes in Nick’s eyes.  However, the >American Academy of Pediatrics, which is usually so slow to give it’s >approval to any medications with breastfeeding, has given Plaquenil a >favorable rating.  So, now I’m just faced with a decision…  to a) stop the >Plaquenil and risk getting so sick I can’t care for either of my sons, b) >continue to take the Plaquenil and risk ruining Nick’s vision irreparably, >or c) feed with formula, which I consider a last resort for me.  Please, >please don’t flame me for not wanting to formula feed– it’s a very deeply >personal decision for me.  I just need to know if any of you breastfed your >children while on the med and have positive results to report.

A naive (or ignorant) question. If there is a possibility of Plaquenil damaging his eyes if you breastfeed, why doesn’t the same problem occur before birth?  Does the placenta block the drug? — Andy For Austrian philately <URL: http://www.kitzbuhel.demon.co.uk/austamps/> For Lupus <URL: http://www.kitzbuhel.demon.co.uk/lupus/> For my other interests <URL: http://www.kitzbuhel.demon.co.uk/>

Response:

I agree with you, I would use the formula, too.  You can never be too sure taking meds.

Response:

Hi, I have to agree with the *medical* aspects others have pointed out. But I do also have to say I can’t imagine anyone here flaming you for not wanting to use formula.  What it will come down to is how much knowledge is available to you on the topic and your best "guess" at what is best for you and your baby.  I wish I had answers as to the real danger of the med – as you have pointed out the AAP has given it a go ahead.  The actual risk of developing problems with the macula due to plaquenil is very low and very rare.  But it does happen and the folks that usually do have it are surprised either soon after starting it or after years of no problems whatsoever.  I guess if you choose b. then the best advice I can give is keep a very close eye on Nick’s eyes – that may be hard to do with an infant.   I totally understand your fear of being too sick to take care of them along with your strong desire to breastfeed.  I was *determined* I would breastfeed my daughter but I was young and really didn’t understand that when she started sleeping through the whole night that I *shouldn’t* do so too.  So I dried up within two months and I regret that in some ways.  OTOH – my daughter and I still bonded deeply just by me constantly holding and loving her and we are very close to this day (though at 16 I am a complete idiot by her standards! – typical teen stuff). I wish I could help more… suffice it to say you have our support and understanding whatever your decision may be..  If will ask the Hamline group on your behalf – it gets a little more traffic than this group I think and I *know* there are younger women on there that have had young ‘uns after diagnosis. KCat http://www.ghg.net/schwerpt/aslfaq20.htm http://www.ghg.net/schwerpt/mypage.htm "I’m trusting in a love that has no end The Savior of this world has called me friend." SC Chapman

Response:

Just a thought…doctors told expectant mothers that thalidomide was perfectly safe for their unborn children, too.  You just can’t be TOO careful. — Regards, Tee http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Trails/8252 Remove the no-spam- from my email addy to contact me. "Janers" <rojak…@bright.net> wrote in message

news:PaLR4.11275$t_3.139072@cletus.bright.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi Laura,  I don’t think any one can tell you what you should do.  What a > hell of a dilema.  Me,  I would use the formula.  To me the child’s sight > is more important than the mother’s milk at this stage.  I realize it is a > deep personal decision but picture the child trying to learn to read, to > notice the grass grow, the flowers bloom.  The beautiful blue sky,  we do > not know what it is like to grow up not being able to see.  Put a scarf on > your eyes for a day and see or not see, what we take for granted.  I am > hearing impared and do not know what I would do with out my site to help me > see people talking.  what would happen if Nick for some reason lost his > hearing over something or an accident, > I hope I have not offended you but to me this is no real decision use the > formula,  and give the child the gift of sight….. > Maybe just maybe the drug companies don’t know everything there is to know. > and as a nurse, you realize that that is so true with the side effects of a > lot of meds.  Maybe by luck Nick’s sight would not be damaged, but I sure > as H would not take that chance….. > From one nurse to another, think about this… > — > Janers

Response:

Hi Laura,  I don’t think any one can tell you what you should do.  What a hell of a dilema.  Me,  I would use the formula.  To me the child’s sight is more important than the mother’s milk at this stage.  I realize it is a deep personal decision but picture the child trying to learn to read, to notice the grass grow, the flowers bloom.  The beautiful blue sky,  we do not know what it is like to grow up not being able to see.  Put a scarf on your eyes for a day and see or not see, what we take for granted.  I am hearing impared and do not know what I would do with out my site to help me see people talking.  what would happen if Nick for some reason lost his hearing over something or an accident, I hope I have not offended you but to me this is no real decision use the formula,  and give the child the gift of sight….. Maybe just maybe the drug companies don’t know everything there is to know. and as a nurse, you realize that that is so true with the side effects of a lot of meds.  Maybe by luck Nick’s sight would not be damaged, but I sure as H would not take that chance….. From one nurse to another, think about this… — Janers

Response:

Hello all… I am a 28 year old registered nurse, diagnosed 16 months ago with Lupus.  I currently take 400 mg Plaquenil bid and do relatively well. I am 32 weeks pregnant with my son, Nicholas, and I need your help.  Have any of you ladies breastfed your children while on Plaquenil?  I posed the question to my rheumatologist today who told me that it would not be a good idea because it could cause retinal changes in Nick’s eyes.  However, the American Academy of Pediatrics, which is usually so slow to give it’s approval to any medications with breastfeeding, has given Plaquenil a favorable rating.  So, now I’m just faced with a decision…  to a) stop the Plaquenil and risk getting so sick I can’t care for either of my sons, b) continue to take the Plaquenil and risk ruining Nick’s vision irreparably, or c) feed with formula, which I consider a last resort for me.  Please, please don’t flame me for not wanting to formula feed– it’s a very deeply personal decision for me.  I just need to know if any of you breastfed your children while on the med and have positive results to report. Thank you very much, Laura Paulsel, RN

Response:

Extended nursing on the radio

Question:

Wow.  Well, I woke up this morning to hear a discussion on a popular local radio station about extended nursing!! I guess there was an article written this weekend about it. Anyway.  A quick disclaimer, I’m merely relaying what was discussed, I couldn’t get the # to call in the show. Several people called in and here is some of what was said, "When a puppy goes to it’s mother and she has weaned him off, she snips at him.  A dog doesn’t nurse for a long time.  Many animals are like this."   and  "Once animals have teeth they stop nursing." and "I have a problem with a child unbottoning a mothers shirt."  and something about there isn’t many nutrients after one year (didn’t catch the whole thing.)  Extended nursing and mothers who do this were called, "freaks" and "disgusting."  By the DJ and callers. A local news anchor even called and said, "Well, some women do it.  I won’t be one of them!  Once they have teeth, they can eat.  Just like animals." and everyone started laughing. The DJ said, "Well, if a lot of women do it, where are they?  We haven’t received one call from someone who supports this!" Throughout the two hours she was begging for someone to call who supports this. *One* person finally called.  She was bf her 15 month old just finished bf her two year old and said "most mothers who extend nurse offer a breast as comfort and say, ‘Do you want to nurse?’ to their children.  Of course they’ll say yes.  I didn’t ask, I offered alternitives, but if my child really wanted to, I would." When the DJ asked what she thought of a 7 yr old nursing, she said, "They should get therapy." The DJ responded, "Well then, where is the line?" The gal said, "um… when the child wants to I guess." The DJ responded, "If you ask a 13 year old if he wants to drive of course he’ll say yes." No response from the girl. I’m sorry but, that isn’t a very good arguement from the *one* person that called.  The show was supporting bf, but slammed extended nursing down hard. It seems the lot of you are in the minority. As these comments do reflect how I feel, and it was *very* ironic that we were just discussing this, I thought you would like to hear what was said. ~Shell

Response:

I read somewhere (maybe on this ng?) that most mammals wean when they reach about 25% of their adult weight.  In humans, I figure with an average of 150 pounds that would be 37.5 pounds.  This is usually well into toddlerhood for most babies.  I don’t know how much truth there is to it, but if it is true, that would be a good argument.  I haven’t told anyone I am going to let ds decide when to wean.  I have told everyone a year at least, and I get all kinds of comments about that.  

Response:

World Health Organisation recommends breast feeding until at least 2 years of age. As they know their stuff I’m with extended nursing. The immunilogical care continues. The terrible 2s sometimes don’t materialise and nursing a toddler is great fun too. S

Response:

Very interesting statements. Although I don’t understand how a study for humans can be found through apes.  Why don’t they just study humans? (BTW, it wasn’t a panel.  Just a question posed with callers.) Thanks, ~Shell

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   These comments "do reflect how you feel?"   Wow.  Some babies get their first tooth as early as 3 or 4 months.  I guess that means we have to follow the example of the dogs and deprive our children of the many benefits of exclusive breastfeeding because some local DJ thinks humans and dogs are the same.  HMMM.   Does this also mean we should bite our kids when they try to nurse after they get their teeth, to follow the dogs example?   So, you agree with what was said on this show?  I thought you said in another post you were planning of BFing for 12 months.  You do realize that babies usually have several teeth by this time don’t you?  You said you wanted to follow the AAP recommendation—well, since you agree with the teeth theory you wont be able to follow this recommendation, since it states BF exclusively for 4 to 6 months, then continued for a MINIMUM of 1 year, then as long as mutually desired by mom and baby.   There has also been anthropologic research showing that a natural age for weaning of humans would be between 3 and 7 years of age.  I believe much of this research is based on chimps and apes, which are much closer to humans than dogs.  Perhaps no one called in because they didn’t want to have a conversation with an obvious roomful of anti BF idiots who would contort anything they said to make them look bad.  If this were going to be a real discussion, they would have had at least one extended breastfeeding advocate on the panel.  The fact that they didn’t shows their extreme bias.

Response:

ewwww…   LOL! Good point. ~Shell – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I guess that means we have to follow the example of the dogs and deprive our children of the many benefits of exclusive breastfeeding because some local DJ thinks humans and dogs are the same.  HMMM.   Does this also mean we should bite our kids when they try to nurse after they get their teeth, to follow the dogs example? We should also eat the placentas, and lick the babies’ butts when they poop too, I guess. –S.

Response:

Very interesting statements. Although I don’t understand how a study for humans can be found through apes.  Why don’t they just study humans?

The study in question was done by Katherine Dettwyler, a nutritional anthopologist whose expertise is breastfeeding, in attempt to assess what a natural weaning age in humans might be. Many factors were taken into account from animal observations in the wild b/c humans, being domesticated with societal prejudices, would not make a fair study about what might be "natural". Neither would apes in a zoo, etc. She notes that chimpanzees (I believe it’s chimps) share 98% of genetic material with humans, so their nursing practices would seemingly be quite similar to human’s natural tendencies (i.e. if not pressured at all by society from birth on). The things looked at include (and forgive me for not remembering all the details exactly like which categor was for apes and which was for mammals in general): most larger mammals or apes wean when the young are approximately half way to puberty … 6 to 7 years in humans most larger mammals or apes wean when the young get their first permanent molars, approx. 6 years in humans most larger mammals wean after the offspring have quadrupled birthweight … about 3 years in humans (average of course) and a child’s immune system is not fully developed until age 5 or 6 years. You can read details about this in an informal article on the web at http://www.prairienet.org/community/health/laleche/detwean.html although the more formal article is part of a much larger book co-edited by Dr. Dettwyler. — Colette l n r p l x u s a t r i p c o d o t c o m ^^^^^^reduce for email^^^^^^ Peace begins at birth. Support non-nurse midwifery. http://www.geocities.com/Wellesley/5510

Response:

I guess I missed the original post on this situation, but if they are going to look at the species specific characteristics of human breastmilk vs the breastmilk of other mamals, we are meant to breastfeed frequently and for approximately four years.  So, it sounds like someone didn’t have accurate information to start giving opinions on the radio. Carol, IBCLC – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I guess that means we have to follow the example of the dogs and deprive our children of the many benefits of exclusive breastfeeding because some local DJ thinks humans and dogs are the same.  HMMM.   Does this also mean we should bite our kids when they try to nurse after they get their teeth, to follow the dogs example? We should also eat the placentas, and lick the babies’ butts when they poop too, I guess. –S.

Response:

    Thanks Colette I was trying to find the specific info to post and couldn’t seem to locate it although I knew I had read it.  Thanks for posting it. Cindy

Response:

   These comments "do reflect how you feel?"    Wow.  Some babies get their first tooth as early as 3 or 4 months.  I guess that means we have to follow the example of the dogs and deprive our children of the many benefits of exclusive breastfeeding because some local DJ thinks humans and dogs are the same.  HMMM.   Does this also mean we should bite our kids when they try to nurse after they get their teeth, to follow the dogs example?      So, you agree with what was said on this show?  I thought you said in another post you were planning of BFing for 12 months.  You do realize that babies usually have several teeth by this time don’t you?  You said you wanted to follow the AAP recommendation—well, since you agree with the teeth theory you wont be able to follow this recommendation, since it states BF exclusively for 4 to 6 months, then continued for a MINIMUM of 1 year, then as long as mutually desired by mom and baby.      There has also been anthropologic research showing that a natural age for weaning of humans would be between 3 and 7 years of age.  I believe much of this research is based on chimps and apes, which are much closer to humans than dogs.     Perhaps no one called in because they didn’t want to have a conversation with an obvious roomful of anti BF idiots who would contort anything they said to make them look bad.  If this were going to be a real discussion, they would have had at least one extended breastfeeding advocate on the panel.  The fact that they didn’t shows their extreme bias.

Response:

Pregnant on pentasa

Question:

Congrats on the baby Lee ! — MrsRat Admin XWorld IRC NetWork http://sefl.satelnet.org/~brats/

Response:

Lee- Congratulations!!!!  I can’t help on the pregnancy/breastfeeding/drug issue because I was not diagnosed when I was pregnant.  But I want to say I’m so happy for you.  Besides CD, I also suffer from endometriosis, so I can understand what you go through…. Keep us posted on how you do……  Wishing you an uneventful pregnancy with your IBD (and endo). Best wishes : ) Tracy

Response:

  Hi gang, I have won the battle over CD and my endometriosis again and I am pregnant.  It’s still really early, so I am cautious about celebrating it.  Last pregnancy I was on asacol and did fine.  This time I am on pentasa and I am wondering if any one else out there has been on this drug with a pregnancy and with breast feeding.  My doctor said it is safe, but I appreciate opinions from those who have been there, done that.  Thanks-Lee

I called MotherRisk – a place that gives info of drug safety to pg and nursing moms – they said it should be safe, but to get a second level ultrs-sound anyways just to check for things like cleft palate – things that are fixable and primarily aesthetic – not developmental problems. Congratulations – even though I puked almost the whole 91/2 months ( but I”m not bitter!), my cd (didn’t know til after that I had it) went into remission and it was the happiest time of my life.  then about a year after Violet was born – flare big time!  Which, from what I understand is pretty common after pg … have fun! Sioux — * Remove the word "froggies" from our "reply-to" address (reply to * * http://www3.sympatico.ca/lilypad **

Response:

  Hi gang, I have won the battle over CD and my endometriosis again and I am pregnant.  It’s still really early, so I am cautious about celebrating it.  Last pregnancy I was on asacol and did fine.  This time I am on pentasa and I am wondering if any one else out there has been on this drug with a pregnancy and with breast feeding.  My doctor said it is safe, but I appreciate opinions from those who have been there, done that.  Thanks-Lee

Response:

breastfeeding and ketosis

Question:

Have heart. When my son was born I found myself carrying an extra 20 lbs after all the pregnancy weight was lost. The entire time I breast-fed him I was unable to shake a single ounce, but then I weaned him, and right after that the entire 20 lbs fell off in the space of a month without my even trying hardly.

Well, this is good to hear.  I am not ready to wean yet but something to look forward to. Thanks for sharing.

Response:

Somewhere I read some stuff about the storage of toxins in the When animals ingest toxins (pesticides, chemicals, etc.) the residue is stored within fat cells.  When dieting some of these toxins are released in the body as the fat cells break down.  This is why aggressive dieting is not reccomended during pregnancy as you don’t want these toxins affecting the growing fetus.  As well, it is one of the reasons you don’t necessarily want to eat animal fat – like chicken skin (which is mostly fat). I don’t know how it applies to breastmilk but I would assume something similar would be the case. I can’t remember where I heard this and I’m not assuming I’m 100% on this but I do think it’s valid. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I can not cite proof for you but it is generally recommended that you do not use a ketogenic diet while pregnant or breastfeeding.  The ketones will get to the baby.  My suggestion, and if you find research to contradict this, please let me know, is that you up your carbs very slightly until you are just out of ketosis.  Use good carbs, not junk.  Get some ketosticks if you don’t have them already. This has been LLL advice too.  However,  what exact harm will ketones cause my son?  Traditional bf-ing diet advice I am very wary of.  These are the same people that said I should lose weight easily by just demand feeding. Well I have been demand feeding for 22 months with 0 lbs lost. My other question now is – will I continue to lose weight if I am just out of ketosis?  I thought you had to be in ketosis to lose.

Response:

   Contact your local Laleche league for info. Sinrod Stained Glass Studios http://members.aol.com/JKSinrod/sinrod.html Coney Island Memories http://members.aol.com/JKSinrod/page4.html

Response:

I know I should go to the Dr for this question but he doesn’t support a LC diet so I am reluctant.  I know that ketones are excreted thru breath, urine and feces but are they also eliminated in breastmilk?  I ask because my DH and I are on PP and are in ketosis.  We both notice a change in color of BM’s.  My son that I am nursing has the same change.  I find this interesting but I am concerned about any ketones he my be ingesting.  Is this harmful for him?

I can not cite proof for you but it is generally recommended that you do not use a ketogenic diet while pregnant or breastfeeding.  The ketones will get to the baby.  My suggestion, and if you find research to contradict this, please let me know, is that you up your carbs very slightly until you are just out of ketosis.  Use good carbs, not junk.  Get some ketosticks if you don’t have them already. My other thought is that perhaps my breastmilk has gone from a high carb content to a high protein.  Any ideas?

No.  Breastmilk has a specific fat-carb-protein breakdown that is different for different species but should not change based on your diet.  You can "contaminate" breastmilk or change other things about it but your body will produce what it needs to produce and simply take what it needs from your diet and body stores.  Again, this is a guess. Cyndi 160/150/135 (weight means little; better progress markers are below) Men’s jean size  38/34/32 — Women’s dress size 14-16/12-14/12 Lowcarb vegetarian + seafood since 7/28/98 — http://www.immuneweb.org/lowcarb/ "There’s nothing wrong with me.  Maybe there’s                     Cyndi Norman                                                  http://www.consultclarity.com/

Response:

I can not cite proof for you but it is generally recommended that you do not use a ketogenic diet while pregnant or breastfeeding.  The ketones will get to the baby.  My suggestion, and if you find research to contradict this, please let me know, is that you up your carbs very slightly until you are just out of ketosis.  Use good carbs, not junk.  Get some ketosticks if you don’t have them already.

This has been LLL advice too.  However,  what exact harm will ketones cause my son?  Traditional bf-ing diet advice I am very wary of.  These are the same people that said I should lose weight easily by just demand feeding. Well I have been demand feeding for 22 months with 0 lbs lost. My other question now is – will I continue to lose weight if I am just out of ketosis?  I thought you had to be in ketosis to lose.

Response:

Have heart. When my son was born I found myself carrying an extra 20 lbs after all the pregnancy weight was lost. The entire time I breast-fed him I was unable to shake a single ounce, but then I weaned him, and right after that the entire 20 lbs fell off in the space of a month without my even trying hardly. It is also perfectly possible to lose when not in ketosis, just as it is perfectly possible *not* to lose when you *are* in ketosis. — Debbie Cusick I plan to be a procrastinator some day if I ever get around to it. Check out the asdlc FAQ at: http://www.grossweb.com/asdlc – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Traditional bf-ing diet advice I am very wary of.  These are the same people that said I should lose weight easily by just demand feeding. Well I have been demand feeding for 22 months with 0 lbs lost.

Response:

The PP FAQ that comes with their package says you should avoid being in ketosis if pregnant or breastfeeding – but that you can keep you carbs lower than average and concentrate on "good" carbs like veggies, whole grains, etc. They suggest you aim for around 100-130g daily. — Debbie Cusick I plan to be a procrastinator some day if I ever get around to it. Check out the asdlc FAQ at: http://www.grossweb.com/asdlc

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I know I should go to the Dr for this question but he doesn’t support a LC diet so I am reluctant.  I know that ketones are excreted thru breath, urine and feces but are they also eliminated in breastmilk?  I ask because my DH and I are on PP and are in ketosis.

Response:

I was a peer counselor through the WIC program, it is not the ketones themselves (there are women who keep a ketogenic diet and breastfeed)  so much as the rate of loss that is important. Losing more than 2lbs a month (which is easy on low-carb) is harmful because the fat is where you store pesticides and other contaminants from our diets. When you burn fat from your body too fast they cannot be filtered out sufficiently and they can harm your baby. I had the same problem when nursing, I didn’t lose, I actually gained weight (10lbs with each child ) so I know how you feel. Losing weight is fine during breastfeeding it just has to be done slowly. Up the carbs enough that you don’t lose more than 1/2 a LB a week. Michele – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I can not cite proof for you but it is generally recommended that you do not use a ketogenic diet while pregnant or breastfeeding.  The ketones will get to the baby.  My suggestion, and if you find research to contradict this, please let me know, is that you up your carbs very slightly until you are just out of ketosis.  Use good carbs, not junk.  Get some ketosticks if you don’t have them already. This has been LLL advice too.  However,  what exact harm will ketones cause my son?  Traditional bf-ing diet advice I am very wary of.  These are the same people that said I should lose weight easily by just demand feeding. Well I have been demand feeding for 22 months with 0 lbs lost. My other question now is – will I continue to lose weight if I am just out of ketosis?  I thought you had to be in ketosis to lose.

Response:

I’m not a medical specialist so I can only tell you my experiences while breast feeding and LCing. I breast fed my daughter up to one year old. During that time I was LCing the last 6 mos. She is now 18 mos. old and neither I nor my doctor have noticed any ill effects. I did not specifically ask my doctor about this (although I probably should had) but he was aware that I was LCing and breast feeding and he did not warn me against it. I know I should go to the Dr for this question but he doesn’t support a LC diet so I am reluctant.  I know that ketones are excreted thru breath, urine and feces but are they also eliminated in breastmilk?  I ask because my DH and I are on PP and are in ketosis.  We both notice a change in color of BM’s.  My son that I am nursing has the same change.  I find this interesting but I am concerned about any ketones he my be ingesting.  Is this harmful for him? My other thought is that perhaps my breastmilk has gone from a high carb content to a high protein.  Any ideas?

– 180/156.5/125 Reference jeans: 14/8/5 BF%:?/28.1%/15%? B: 44F/38DD/32C W:36/28/22 H:40/33.5/34 Thighs:28/24/20? FAQ PAGE: http://www.grossweb.com/asdlc/

Response:

I know I should go to the Dr for this question but he doesn’t support a LC diet so I am reluctant.  I know that ketones are excreted thru breath, urine and feces but are they also eliminated in breastmilk?  I ask because my DH and I are on PP and are in ketosis.  We both notice a change in color of BM’s.  My son that I am nursing has the same change.  I find this interesting but I am concerned about any ketones he my be ingesting.  Is this harmful for him? My other thought is that perhaps my breastmilk has gone from a high carb content to a high protein.  Any ideas?

Response: