Klonopin
Question:
"b…@nospam.net" wrote:
<snip irrelevant rant about Doug Ruth> > It is always the ones that contribute the least to helping anyone on > this news group that criticize the ones that do the most to actual help > people and share their experiences. This is the reason that MOST of the > people that were here a couple of years ago are no longer here.
This is utter bullshit. I’ve been around usenet and email support groups since 1990, and virtually NO-ONE stays with a group for more than a couple of years at a stretch. (Steve Harris on sci.med is a notable exception) Life is a dynamic process. People get busy with other things. People find _new_ groups to visit. People realize that the group can get along without them, and decide that they are spending too much time on the newsgroups. There are an enormous number of things which can cause people to leave a group. When they just get pissed, and leave purely because of anger, they usually end up seething and stewing for a while, then come back to see what’s happening. (Just like YOU did when you "left forever.") Most people tend to just fade away, due to apathy, or fascination with new things. I also think that your attempt to link people’s treatment of Doug Ruth on this group to his suicide are inappropriate as well. People don’t commit suicide because someone was insulting to them online. People commit suicide because they are mentally ill. Perhaps online insults and flame wars can exacerbate an already poor situation, but trying to lay the blame for Mr. Ruth’s death on a specific usenet poster is rather weak. Trying to make an analogy between that claim, and your argument with Charles suggests that perhaps you should seek counseling for depression. If you feel that Charles is driving you to the point where you need to make analogies between your interactions, and the online interactions of Mr. Ruth just before his suicide, then you may be experiencing a serious inability to appropriately respond to the social environment you are in. (And I am NOT saying this as an insult. I have experience with the issue, and it really does completely destroy your ability to get the proper perspective on things.) > I know that you hate my guts, and I really couldn’t care less. I > strongly suggest that you put me into your kill file immediately. If you > insist on playing your little games with me……It WILL get nasty. > Promise, not threat!
I really don’t understand what the problem is here. Maybe it’s because I ignore all the threads about CPAP and apnea, so I don’t get to see most of you guys’ posts. But restricting my opinions to just what was said in this thread, Charles made a perfectly polite and acceptable response to one of your posts. Yet later, you decided to mention him specifically in a post which wasn’t even a response to him. And what you said was really obnoxious. Now, expanding my opinions to what I have seen of your behavior with regards to John Fisher (one of the nicest people I’ve ever met on usenet), and your incredibly obnoxious and rude behavior towards him merely because he was nice to a spammer, I personally think that you are being unreasonable. > Better run along now Charles and check the posting with the girls on > alt. fashion. Perhaps you can attend another "scavenger cunt" like the > one you posted about on July 11 at 8:59:42. I think that comment is > quite indicative of the your attitude toward women.
People who take small snippets of postings out of context are among the lowest of the low. Especially when you quote posts from a completely unrelated group. Different groups have different styles. I doubt you’d like it if someone quoted something you said in a locker room when you were in high school, next time you are applying for a job. Context, and the social environment are critical for determining if something is appropriate. By taking a quote out of context, and posting it in a different environment, you are being truly repulsive. If you have something against Charles, then say it, don’t go trying to smear him with out of context quotations from unrelated newsgroups. And by the way, I’m calling you on the fact that you completely backtracked on your opinion of Klonopin, rather than admit that you were wrong. Read about it in another post on this thread. (Or don’t, I don’t really care.) -Bret Wood -bretw…@cs.uoregon.edu
Response:
>Klonopin is not a sedative drug. >Klonopin IS a sedative drug. It is commonly used as a sedative drug.
I’m usually pretty quiet around here, just lurking in the wings, but I feel I must give my 2 cents worth… My daughters (age 4 and almost years old…) both have RLS/PLMD, and both are on Klonapin. When they first began taking it (like the first week…) it made them groggy-but then-WHOA! Bouncing off the walls! They now take Clonidine (Generic Catapress, usually used to treat high blood pressure) along with the Klonapin. The Clonidine helps them FALL asleep, and the Klonapin helps them STAY asleep. Amazing, Huh? So, we all have our "opinions", but let’s not bash each other for it. And Bret, didn’t your parents ever tell you that 2 wrongs don’t make a right? It’s not nice to insult someone for insulting someone ELSE-if it were you who were insulted, fine- otherwise,MYOB, and let them work it out amongst themselves-there’s always a resolution in the end as you have seen in the past-they participants in the feuds know when to say when, and call a truce. Everyone else sticking their noses in it just fans the flames, setting the scenerio for a long, nasty battle that might otherwise be overwith in just a few messages. (And, BTW, I’m NOT insulting you-just stating a few things I’ve observed.) PS…After this, I could use a few Oreos-anyone got a couple laying around? 
Happy Dreaming… Trish
Response:
ZAPYA69 wrote: > So, we all have our "opinions", but let’s not bash each other for it. And Bret, > didn’t your parents ever tell you that 2 wrongs don’t make a right? It’s not > nice to insult someone for insulting someone ELSE-if it were you who were > insulted, fine- otherwise,MYOB, and let them work it out amongst > themselves-there’s always a resolution in the end as you have seen in the > past-they participants in the feuds know when to say when, and call a truce.
Bear started using a "dirty trick" when he took an out of context quote from another newsgroup and posted it here. I had someone do something similar to me several years ago, and it is _not nice_. Even though the post wasn’t directed at me, it was the same underhanded attack I had to put up with several years ago, and I felt that it was necessary for me to come to Charles’ aid so that he wouldn’t be "hung out to dry" the way I was when it happened to me. People who commit such egregious violations of netiquitte deserve to get flamed to a crisp IMNSHO. If one guy is going to start beating on someone else, should the rest of the world just stand back and watch? There comes a point where someone should step in and help. But, I do appreciate your opinion. And if I had any Oreos, I’d share them with you. :) -Bret
Response:
"b…@nospam.net" wrote: > IMHO, treating insomnia with Klonopin is a poor "off chart > utilization of Klonopin. It has the longest serum half life of all the > benzo drugs, and leave the patient groggy an "hung over" in the morning > for a considerable time.
But originally, you said this: > Klonopin is not a sedative drug. I honestly don’t know where this > fallacy originated…… perhaps in the prescription pad of a > physician that didn’t read his P.D.R.
Klonopin IS a sedative drug. It is commonly used as a sedative drug. Even if it is an "off label" use, it is still one of the most common uses. When I was having a borderline manic episode, and took myself to the emergency room, they gave me a large dose of Klonopin, and sent me home to sleep it off. I was prescribed Klonopin as a sleeping pill for several weeks to help me force myself onto a nighttime sleep schedule. In most older psychiatric texts, Klonopin is listed as a "minor tranqualizer." More up to date texts use the term antianxiety agent instead. In psychiatry, the primary uses of Klonopin is to treat acute anxiety, and to induce drowsiness. Also, the only difference between a "side effect" and a "therapeutic effect" depends on _why_ you are taking the medication, not WHAT the medication is. In my case, I am taking Verapamil as a mood stabilizer. It is also lowering my blood pressure. If it stopped affecting my blood pressure, I really wouldn’t care, because that is a _side effect_ in my case, since I am taking the med to treat a mood disorder. On the other hand, if someone with angina started taking Verapamil, and they noticed that their cyclothymia (a very mild sub-clinical form of manic depression) had diminished, then the mood stabilization property would be the side effect. -Bret Wood -bretw…@cs.uoregon.edu
Response:
On Sun, 11 Jul 1999 16:41:49 GMT, jeba…@xxmicrodsi.net (Tom Miller) wrote: >On Sun, 11 Jul 1999 03:41:42 GMT, clper…@swbell.net (Charles L. >Perrin) wrote: >> | On Sat, 10 Jul 1999 16:23:57 -0700, "b…@nospam.net" >> | <b…@nospam.net> wrote: >> | > Klonopin is not a sedative drug. I honestly don’t know where this >> | >fallacy originated…… perhaps in the prescription pad of a physician >> | >that didn’t read his P.D.R. >> | PDR covers the FDA-labeled uses of a drug. If Abbott didn’t put down >> | "it’s a sedative" in their FDA application, it’s not in the PDR. >Just a point of information, the drug descriptions in PDR (Physicians’ >Desk Reference) are written (and paid for) by the drug manufacturers. >PDR only collects the descriptions (called "package inserts") and >prints them in one place. Although this is a valuable service, it >doesn’t necessarily list all the ways a particular drug may be used, >as Charles correctly states.
Tom, It’s dangerous to agree with me. A certain b…@nospam.net has this pusillanimous habit of hiding behind his pseudonym and then trolling other newsgroups in which you have participated. Consider yourself warned. <grin/duck> –C.
Response:
On Sun, 11 Jul 1999 13:30:14 -0700, "b…@nospam.net" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<b…@nospam.net> wrote: > | x-no-archive: yes > | > | Tom Miller wrote: > | > > | > | > Just a point of information, the drug descriptions in PDR (Physicians’ > | > Desk Reference) are written (and paid for) by the drug manufacturers. > | > PDR only collects the descriptions (called "package inserts") and > | > prints them in one place. > | > | Hi Tom, > | > | You are totally accurate on this statement. It is a shame that it has > | become the "Bible" of pharmacology to many physicians today. It is > | nothing but a compilation of sales propaganda. This is the same book > | that listed Thalidomide as a "safe" drug several decades ago, the same > | recently with Redux. I can only wonder how many apnea patients have died > | from or are now suffering from M.V.P. as a result of this > | disinformation. IMHO, the PDR is useful only for looking up the correct > | spelling of a drug. If you want the real goodies on any medication, ask > | the doctors that prescribe it and the patients that take it every day.
Actually, although PDR certainly serves a sales function, it is not so much sales propaganda as it is legal protection for the pharmaceutical industry. If a doctor uses a drug for purposes not listed in the package insert and something goes wrong, the manufacturer may have some degree of legal protection from lawsuit. It works the other way around, too. If a doctor uses the drug as described in the package insert and the patient croaks, the doctor has some degree of legal protection. However, I would disagree that it is useless information. For many years there was no other convenient resource for prescribing information. Nowadays there are other resources but, as a result of publisher production schedules, none so up to date on new drugs as PDR — at least none that I know of. Most other countries have no similar publication, and envy us in the US with access to the PDR. It may not be complete as we would wish, but it is still, IMHO, useful. You are right that your local pharmacist is frequently a good source of information. A lot of these folks are really on top of things. Mine often knows more about counterindications and dosage information than my doctor. I am sure there are many drugs produced every year with the potential to become another Redux or Thalidomide, but the drug testing and approval process in the US is far from reckless. Most criticism I have read has complained that the procedure is too slow and conservative. Personally I am glad that I don’t have to make decisions about such things. Too thorough a procedure and people die because a drug is not yet available. Too quick and problems slip through. I know nothing about Klonopin, by the way. Just a lot about PDR. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> | > | Also, one of the most overlooked resources that we all have at our beck > | on call is our local pharmacist. These folks have extensive (and > | current) knowledge that goes WAY beyond putting pills from a small > | bottle and into a little bottle. I would put my faith in my local > | pharmacist any day before I would trust ANYTHING that was written about > | medications by ANYONE on the internet. If you have a question about > | medication that you are taking or might be thinking about taking, I > | strongly suggest that you discuss it with your local pharmacist. Most of > | these folks are bored stiff from filling pill bottles and typing labels > | into a computer. Just catch them at a time that they are not super busy > | and you can get a wealth of current accurate information for free. > | Imagine the concept! :!) Pharmacists are also the true experts on drug > | interactions. I would feel safe in saying the average pharmacist knows > | more about drug interactions that the average physician does. > | > | > | > Although this is a valuable service, it > | > doesn’t necessarily list all the ways a particular drug may be used, > | > as Charles correctly states. > | > | Agreed, that is why I commented on "off chart" applications of many > | medications. IMHO, treating insomnia with Klonopin is a poor "off chart > | utilization of Klonopin. It has the longest serum half life of all the > | benzo drugs, and leave the patient groggy an "hung over" in the morning > | for a considerable time. It is also quite addictive over the long run, > | and frequently difficult and unpleasant to try to get off of. > | > | IMHO, there are no safe and effective drugs for insomnia. They all come > | with a heavy price to pay down the line. IMHO, ANY medication for sleep > | inducing should only be taken as an absolute necessity and then only for > | as brief a period as possible. I have watched too many people suffer > | from Halcion and Valium withdrawal in my lifetime. It aint pretty! :!( > | > | >I have even noticed in recent PDRs that > | > some drug manufacturers have stopped including some of their older > | > drugs in the publication at all. > | > | Yes. IMHO, this practice sucks! :!( Just because a drug has been on > | the market for decades and has been used safely and effectively by > | million of people is no justification for not continuing to list it. It > | is blatantly obvious that the drug manufactures care about one > | thing…..MONEY!!!!!! Once the patent expires on a drug and it goes > | into generic manufacture, the profit motive for the drug company is > | gone. Why would they want to sell a safe and proven effective medication > | that costs 3 cents a pill when they can push their latest and greatest > | "discovery" at 7-8 $ per pill. > | > | > | > How they are getting this square with > | > the FDA requirement that they circulate prescribing information to all > | > doctors I don’t know. > | > | Good question. Especially for the "new" doctors. Yet another classic > | case of what your doctor doesn’t know can kill you. > | > | ……..Best Wishes…….Bear…. > | > > | > —————————————————- > | > "Trudy is Beauth, Beauth, Trudy"
